Roberto Germán (00:01):
Welcome to our classroom in this space. We talk about education, which is inclusive of, but not limited to what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto Germán and our classroom is officially in session today. I'm joined by the authors of changed the narrative Henry J. Turner and Kathy Lopes. Henry is principal at Newton north high school in Newton, Massachusetts. He is most proud of the collaborative community. He works within to empower students to fight hate and bigotry in their school. Kathy Lopes is a clinical social worker and an educator with over 20 years of experience, raging from primary to post-secondary education. She currently serves as director of diversity, equity and inclusion for Newton public schools in Newton, Massachusetts. Thank you for being here. It is my pleasure to have you,uHenry, can you share a little bit about yourself before I get into my questions? And then Kathy, I'll ask you to do the same.
Henry J. Turner (01:26):
Sure. Thank you so much for have having us. This is this is exciting and we're, we are excited to talk about this book. So I am a high school principal in Massachusetts. Been I've been a principal for 10 years now and I came into education over 20 years ago, committed to social justice and addressing racial disparities in our schools. I've worked in large suburban schools that you know, need work to do around its diversity equity inclusion, and making sure that all kids feel, feel loved and seen. So that's just been my mission and I'm really proud of the work I've done as a, as a principal.
Roberto Germán (02:07):
Thank you. Thank you for your leadership, Kathy.
Kathy Lopes (02:10):
Yes. so I am the director of diversity equity inclusion for Newton public schools. I'm wrapping up my second year in this role and I got here by way of social work. So I am a social worker by training and I've been, I've done work in education, my entire career. I've also dabbled with policy and non-profit organizations, but I'm always coming back to education and similar to Henry, just finding opportunities to create spaces for black and brown students to feel like they belong, that they can achieve that they can imagine. So it's really exciting that we were able to come together and put something together that I think is really near and dear to both of us. So
Roberto Germán (02:53):
That's awesome. So I have these wonderful perspectives that you bring to the table from the admin lens. And I think it's important that folks hear from administrators speaking as a former administrator. Oftentimes the stuff I would see posted on social media would feel like a lot of bashing towards administrators. So from my perspective, having been on both sides and always got utmost respect from the teachers, and I've always found it important to bring people in to what it is we see from the 30,000 foot level. And you recently published the book, change the narrative. I'm curious. Tell us about your book. What narrative are you changing? Why, how and how much of your experience as administrators played into the way you wrote the book.
Henry J. Turner (04:08):
So I'll just say that I, I, I agree with you. I think that I think that there can be, there can be a lot of bashing of, of administration and at the same time is that the research shows is that the number one impact on, on a student, in a school is the teacher. The number two is the leadership. So so, you know, we, you can, you know, I think there's a lot of books out there and that's sort of the driver of this, of this, of this book is that there's a lot of books out there about how you can do this, work yourself in terms of addressing racism, systemic racism, racial inequity in your school, you know, how you can be a better advocate for students, but there isn't anything out there about how do you create a system that dismantles the system to build a system that is for all kids and that's the narrative that we wanted to shift.
Henry J. Turner (05:02):
And, and, and to me, when we started talking about the title, it started with a, you know, a teacher who was really struggling to say, you know, I can't it was a history teacher talking about diversifying the, the curriculum. And he, he said, well, you know, all, including all these different narratives, doesn't create a narrative for students to understand. And he said, I real, I was thinking about that for several years. And what I realized is that we've gotta change the narrative. We've gotta, we've gotta recognize that we want students to recognize the history is complex, that it's complicated, that it has many voices. And that, that is the narrative. Not that there's a single narrative, that there are multiple narratives. And I think that that is true for how our students exist in school is that we can't just expect them to all follow the same path.
Henry J. Turner (05:57):
We need students. We need students to know that they can follow their own path, their own story in that everything that they bring into our buildings has a lot of meeting and has a lot. They have a lot of strength that will allow them to, to Excel. And I would say that you know, my lens is a, is a change agent. You know, that's, I believe in distributed leadership and working with diverse groups to, to create, to change culture. That's what drives me as, as a leader. And Kathy from her social justice, social work lens is a, is people centered. And I think that that's really where our combination just made this mm-hmm perfect is that you know, many of our conversations were driven around like, you know, I would, I would talk about some policy and, and she was focused on the people, like, how do you bring people along? And it, I think that that's where it just really goes hand, hand in hand.
Roberto Germán (06:55):
I love that. It sounds like a beautiful balance. Kathy, can you add to that?
Kathy Lopes (06:59):
Yeah, I think so much of how I show up in this work and also in this book comes from my own personal narrative of being one of the only students of color in my education from, you know, kindergarten through graduate school. And so I've always really considered, how do you center the voices of those who feel unseen, who feel like they're marginalized? And the narrative has been in education, like comply, assimilate work, harder, stop being lazy. And so for me, it's really think about, no, that's not the narrative to put it on these children to assimilate in order to succeed. We have to dismantle, we have to recognize the ways that we're perpetuating harm, we're perpetuating exclusion, and that narrative leaves so many kids out. So I really wanted to shake up how, how we are seeing this, this story for student success and student belonging and student agency by, by shifting that and saying, how do you ask, how do you invite, how do you you know, bring them in and how do you center them? Because so often these students are never centered outside of just kind of being told, do more work harder and, and just feeling inadequate in a system that isn't fit for them.
Roberto Germán (08:12):
I hear a lot of terms that in, I find encouraging as a school leader, as an educator, I hear you speaking in a way that suggests an asset based approach. Mm-Hmm, you talk about centering the students Henry, you had mentioned and shared leadership, and I'd love to hear a little bit more about how it is you shared in this process, your coauthoring process, and whether educators writers should consider coauthoring. Because when I think about what you're saying, and the fact that you published this book together to, to me, there's a natural correlation in terms of, well, you you're sharing leadership, you're centering people. You're also sharing this book, sharing your thoughts, your insights, this approach together, leading together. And so what was that like? What was the process of co-authoring this book like for you?
Kathy Lopes (09:27):
So I'm, I'm happy to share. So actually Henry had Henry and I met through Newton and we were working together a lot just in my role as the di director. And he had told me he wanted to write a book and was sharing with me some of his thought process in the early phases. And then after a few months, he, he asked me to to join him on this. And at first I was hesitant. I was like, no, this is your book and your vision. But he did convince me to, to come on board. And I think what has been really, really important. And I think it shows up in the book is that there are a lot of similarities to how we've experienced our educational path or personal stories, but the roles in which we play, we were really able to compliment each other because he's a building administrator.
Kathy Lopes (10:12):
So he really can touch on the policies, the grading, the curriculum, the, the student experience, and from a administrative level for the district. I, and, and having a social work lens. I was really thinking about how do you shift a culture? How do you bring people in, how do you manage resistance? How do you empower folks to be a part of, of changing the system? So I think that there was such a nice compliment of like strategy and empathy and just thinking about social, emotional pieces. And I also think what's what has really shown up and I, I'm losing my train of thought right now, but I, I just had another point that might come back to me about, about our partnership, but Henry, do you wanna add?
Henry J. Turner (10:56):
Yeah, what I, what I would say is that we know Kathy's been a great thought partner and we share very similar stories. So both were black students in largely mostly white schools. And with white EDU with mostly white educators we actually went to the same, same university had had very similar experiences there. And so I think that we are, we just matched really well. And there were a lot of things that I think now in hindsight where like, oh my goodness, like it is just so we're so glad that we, we had hit it off in that way. Writing a book is, is hard. So it, you know, I think when, you know, when I, I was able to kind of start outlining what this book was gonna look like. It, it felt really impossible to, to do it as working as a working administrator.
Henry J. Turner (11:52):
And, you know, I, I just feel blessed that, you know, that Kathy was the person that, you know, that was, was there thinking it through with me. And it just, it felt like a natural fit. And I, 100% agree with her that is a far better book because of that, you know, like we have a lot of activities that that she has done in her work with, with, with educators. And, you know, she's worked with coaches, she's worked with counseling departments special ed departments. And so there's a lot of ways, you know, how we think about school, a lot of different groups that sometimes feel left out when we just talk about instruction right. In her experience as a as a DEI person, as a social worker I think just provided huge assets and a lot addressed a lot of blind spots that I wasn't aware of until we went through it.
Henry J. Turner (12:49):
And I would say the process was we just, you know, we divided it up. We, we selected different chapters to write and, you know, we went with, we actually went with the publisher that we went with Dave Burg's consulting because they really helped us to, to, to feel confident that they would be able to create a unified voice, which is what we were nervous about. Cause our writing styles, our writing styles were different. And, and our processes were different, but we edited each other's. So that was sort of the first step in terms of unifying that voice is that we split up the chapters and then you know, and I would say, oh, well, there's a story that I can add in here. Or there's a story I can, you know, that, that she could add into mine. And then we just kept flip flopping in the editing process, which I think you know, ultimately created, created a unified voice for us.
Roberto Germán (13:42):
Was it hard for you to bring her in? I ask because as a writer myself, E even working through my editor's feedback makes me feel some type of way being honest.
Henry J. Turner (13:56):
Roberto Germán (13:56):
Hear you. And so I think it takes humility to bring somebody else into your writing. I hold my writing very dear to my heart. And so perhaps you're the same way, but I, I just wonder about that. Was it challenging for you? Did you feel like you had to humble yourself to bring her in and, and for you too, Kathy, to lean into this and be like, all right, well, you know, maybe I could just do my own thing instead of collaborating.
Henry J. Turner (14:32):
Yeah, I would, I, I mean, it's certainly interesting what, what Kathy's thought is here, but I would, I, I, I thought it was really easy bringing her in and part of it's that you know, as a, someone who communicates a lot in my, in my, in my work you know, I have a lot of editing it. I think going through, going through the dissertation process as well, you know, really beats up your you know, any sort of overconfidence that you may have that you don't need someone to, to rip it apart for you. So I, I did find the strength in it. I think that what was, you know, I think there were a couple moments that were challenging, you know, one is that we are, we're different, different writers and like, you know, you learn about each other's strengths.
Henry J. Turner (15:22):
Just, you know, really funny is that we had to cut like 45,000 words out of the book. Wow. Right off the bat. Yeah. You know, they were like, we're not, oh, that's tough. Yeah. We're not, they're like, we're not gonna publish this. We had to cut about a, you know, over a third of the book. And I was telling some people in my staff this, and they go, what you're surprised by that they go you're, you are verbose. I go, what do you mean? I'm verbose. They go, have you ever read your newsletters?
Roberto Germán (15:52):
Henry J. Turner (15:53):
That's great. So, you know, so it was like you know, and, and Kathy is very direct to the point. And so it was, I think that was, that was super helpful. And you know, the other, the other point was like, you know, she said, you need to trust me on the, on the book cover. And that was probably our most tense moment was, was, was debating the debating, the book cover. And you know, it, I, I think it's a beautiful book cover, so, you know, I give her a hundred percent credit for that.
Kathy Lopes (16:19):
Wow. Thank you. Yeah, I, I think one of the things, and I, and I remember I was gonna say that I think the, the piece of the book that really came together is we were always very clear on what we wanted it to be, and we want what we wanted the message to be and what we wanted people to take from it, where, you know, it gets tricky is that our writing styles are different just like Henry staff knows that ease verbose you know, I take pride in being considered a succinct writer so there were times where I would write something and think it was so profound and her be like, you need to write more and, and yeah, your ego gets like, and I haven't gone through the dissertation process. I'm like, what are you talking about? Right. Or he'd write something.
Kathy Lopes (16:56):
And I'm like, wait, like it's a lot. So I think there was a lot that was the negotiating. And I think overall through the editing process, we hit like the right tempo and the right amount. But there were never issues about like, we shouldn't do that or we should do this. We were, we agreed on the, the template and, and the purpose from the beginning to end. And it was interesting that the, the trickiest part was the cover after we got through that whole editing process, like we came closer as a, as a process and they were like, the, the fun part, the cover is where, where it got heated up a little bit, but it, you know, I think we're just really, really proud and happy with, with all of the book. So
Roberto Germán (17:35):
It must have been such a great learning experience for both of you.
Kathy Lopes (17:37):
Roberto Germán (17:39):
Yeah. So you mentioned dividing up the chapters, which chapter was the most challenging for you to write?
Henry J. Turner (17:50):
I thought, I thought assess the assessment was the most challenging. Yeah, that's awesome. And I think it's telling, I mean, I think it's telling that a lot of a lot of educators don't don't follow that step. But we follow, we used in evolving for learning a model for for the book, which was to do your own work through this and to do your own to, to lead through your culture is to follow a cycle of learn, reflect, act, and assess. And, you know, we, we, we saw a couple of vulnerabilities where when people try to do anti-racist work is that they go right into action and they haven't done any research. They haven't learned anything and their bias clouds, the action mm-hmm or their community's not ready for it. You know, there's a lot of reasons why that action fails.
Henry J. Turner (18:46):
It actually could create could strengthen the systemic racism in the, in the, in the organization. If you go straight to action you know, how many times do we see someone say, oh, I just read this book. I'm gonna do this tomorrow. Right. And and, and not thinking through sort of what the impact is, and when we're, we're dealing with our own bias, when we're dealing with you know, hundreds of years of, of racism, you know, you have to, you have to take a, a methodic pro approach. And then the last step after an act is to assess it, did this work, right? And this is where did, did our action lead to dismantling racism to improving student lives? Or did it do nothing, or did it even worse hurt students? And I think a lot of people, you know, missed that.
Henry J. Turner (19:37):
I thought it was really hard because, you know, it is it's easy to make you know, the other steps really fun and engaging and assessment is hard, is really hard work. You know, it, it can be, it can be dry, but it's important. I think that's what we're really focused on. And secondly, is that it's vulnerable is that, you know, is that we, our school has not, our district has not solved racism, right? Like we still have a lot of work to do, and there's no other school. There is no school district that has solved racism. Mm-Hmm so so the assessment is you have to be vulnerable. You have to do the room to say, we really messed up with this. Right. You know, we invested a lot of money and we messed up. And, or we, you know, we messed up with this higher, this is a, a human being. Like you, you have to be really vulnerable in that in the, in these moments. And so assessment was hard cuz it, it you know, it's, it's challenging, it's vulnerable. And it's not, it's not the, it's not, you know, the most exciting as the action that you're taking. Right,
Roberto Germán (20:42):
Right, right. Kathy, was that also the hardest for you?
Kathy Lopes (20:45):
Yeah, I was, I was thinking about it and it was definitely assessed cuz it also like how do you pack this into a chapter and help folks understand like really thoughtful ways to assess? So one of the things that I do in my role and we get, we get folks that say, we wanna do this or we wanna know what has the, the achievement gap changed or has your discipline rates changed? And although these are very important measures and the things that we are actually trying to shift and dismantle, we're not always inviting those impacted to say like, how did this land, are you experiencing a difference? So there was also a push to bring in, again, those voices to say, what would make this a better experience? What would make learning more engaging? How safe do you feel in this community? And then go back to them and say, you know, is there improvement?
Kathy Lopes (21:29):
What are we missing? And making sure that they're involved in that entire entire process, whether it's it's teachers or students or families. So it was just how, and, and shifting this mind of like these, these data measures that we become so accustomed to that, that not being the end all be all right. We actually wanna see a culture shift and you might not always capture that immeasurable quantitative ways. So trying to put that in a, in one chapter of the book and remind folks, you have to go back to it, cuz like Henry said, you know, you get these big initiatives or we did this and nothing changed in helping people slow down through the process and really think about how do I start to notice change in different ways.
Henry J. Turner (22:08):
So, so can I just have one, one other one other thing is that this is where I think we, you can also see you know, white supremacy culture really playing out as well. Is that again, is that, you know, you've gotta really, you've gotta innovate in order to dismantle, to create student centered and anti-racist practices and policies. And you know, when when you're asked by, you know, whatever, whatever outside group, what are the data points that are showing that this is working right? Mm-Hmm and we want you to show it, you know, two months after you've implemented it. And it's like, this is where, this is why, well, why, why our, you know, programs fails that it's either all or nothing. And we have to sort of understand is that you know, it's, it's student based that there's a lot of components to why students you know, are, are not succeeding in school.
Henry J. Turner (23:06):
And our definition for success is so narrow. And, and so many of our schools, so we have to unpack all of that. Right. And that's the important piece of assessment is that it can't just be a test, right. It's not standardized based, standardized testing is not going to you know, tell you whether you are anti-racist or not. You've really gotta unpack it. And that takes a lot of time. I think that's really, that's really the, where the work is really exciting. But at the same point is that too often we see you know, whether it's school boards, it's it's communities it's, you know, it's state government you know, really I really looking at very easy ways to tell you whether you're succeeding or not. And it's just so much more complicated than that.
Roberto Germán (23:55):
Yeah, absolutely. So what is one quote from the book that you think will resonate with readers the most?
Kathy Lopes (24:10):
So I wanna and I don't know if our, our quote is the same, but just when we started writing this book, it really was in the midst of kind of a movement for people to wanna be involved and be engaged. It was, it was very shortly after George Floyd and the other murders of, you know, black, black folks. And by the time you're wrapping up the book, we already started to see this shift around kind of like this band C RT movement. Right. And and we wanted to speak to that resistance. And how do you keep staying committed through the resistance and how to actually ex expect the, the resistance? So the, a quote that really stands out to me and, and we actually just shared it probably two weeks ago, but it says we should expect resistance to manifest when we fight raises racism, historically it always has. So I think just historically, anytime you see advancement, anytime you see people engage, that resistance shows up and it shows up in legislation, it shows up in protests or communities it shows up with, with money quieting folks. So I think that it's really important to recognize, like this is a part of the work and dismantling. What's been existent in our country for centuries and that to stay committed and to keep pushing through and to not allow it to shut you down,
Roberto Germán (25:34):
That's a bar right there.
Henry J. Turner (25:35):
for me, it was you know, it's a, it's a story that we've gotten a lot of feedback from, which is starts right in the beginning is a story about one of our students or former students Lamar. And you know, in a nutshell, she was talking, speaking to our current students about imposter syndrome being a, a black woman in a statistics class at a large majority white public university and recognizing that she was ready and she was prepared and she ended up, found, found herself tutoring two white male students. And she she was able to appreciate the moment, the power of that moment. And so in that we, we, we say that you know, who is anti-racist work for and it's for students like her. But it's also students it's for it's for all students.
Henry J. Turner (26:35):
So we say RA anti-racist cultures benefit all students because these cultures believe that all students thrive in learning environment that understands the inequities that exist due to racist structures and systems commit to dismantling racism so that students know their school loves them. And three helps students feel empowered to create change so that they will Excel. And so that helps the white affluent student with a lot of privilege. And it helps the the student of color with you know, who has who feels like they don't have any privilege at all, or does not have any privilege at all. Right. is that if we can feel, help them feel empowered to create change, to create change for all kids we know we're doing the right thing, and then we're gonna see these academic disparities be dismantled as well.
Roberto Germán (27:28):
I love both quotes because one tackles the reality of the resistance that we often face in this work that we engage in. And the other affirms the reality that this antibias anti-racist work is for all that it's beneficial to everybody. And I would love to see more folks come around to that understanding I'm hopeful, your text will help push that forward.
Kathy Lopes (28:05):
I hope so too,
Roberto Germán (28:07):
To those that are listening, what is a message of encouragement you want to offer them?
Kathy Lopes (28:16):
Wow. I, I think you know, I've been in this role for two years and I, I do see the impact. I do see the shift and I think one of the things that really stands out to me and you go into this role and you're prepared for resistance, or you're like, no one wants to talk about racism all day. And what I've been really surprised about are how many people in the community want to do this work and don't necessarily know how to do it, or don't feel safe to do it, or don't feel supported by their, their supervisors and administrators. But once you create that space and once you kind of create that consistency and that commitment you know, people are coming from all angle students and parents and educators and principals, and just community members saying, we, we wanna be a part of this.
Kathy Lopes (29:02):
We, we want this for our children. And we also work in a predominantly white school community. And we have these white parents saying we want our children to understand this and be able to be inclusive and bring in all cultures. So I think what if you create the space, I think you'll be really surprised by that majority of people want, want to invest in this. And I, I don't think I understood that when I took on this role, I think I went ready, like with armor to, to barrel through. And what I've, what I've learned is once I've created like a space and a standard that, that everyone is, well, the majority are folks are saying, yes, I want this for me, for my child, for my students. And in my profession too, I wanna be better at this,
Henry J. Turner (29:47):
A agree. We know that 80% of educators report that they want to do this work. They want to do anti-racist work and they want more professional development. So you know, we need to take the mindset that educators are in this work for the right the right reasons, but we've gotta help them. We've gotta sup we've gotta support them. But it, it takes, it takes staying in the work. And I think that the story, you know, one of the messages from the book we talked about this we've talked about this recently is that yoga influenced this book tremendously. And the idea that both of us have a, a strong yoga practice. And we talked to some people in the yoga community about how this, the, you know, the history and the practice of yoga can teach us about, about this kind of work.
Henry J. Turner (30:40):
And what we learned is just the idea of, of staying present and staying in, in it when it is hard, right? That's when you need it, the most staying in this pose when it's the hardest is the same as you know, when you feel this resistance you know, you need to stay, stay in that work. And don't back out. And I remember in when I was in college, I saw Stokley Carmichael came to, to, to UMass the legendary civil rights leader who was qu tur at that time, right before he died. And someone was asking him about, you know, some incidents that we were dealing with in our, in our school. And you know, this guy was dealing with some, you know, hate incidents that were directed towards him. And he said Stokley Carmichael said, stay in the work to stay in the work.
Henry J. Turner (31:32):
Right. And I just think that is the message for social justice work is that when we back out, we send a message. When we stay in it, we send a, we send, we also send a message even when that work fails, right. Even when it's gonna, we know it's gonna be hard or it takes time. You know, there are a lot of things we've done that you know, our community or our staff have not have, have not, you know, accepted or agreed to, but there's a lot that they have. And we learn from both you know, both, both stories. So you, you just gotta stay in it and not see this as an initiative. And I think that's where I, you know, we're worried about where a lot of schools are, are going, is that they're putting equity as they're, you know, on their school improvement plan as a one year initiative. Right. Check, check the box, check the box. Right. And you, and you, and you know, when I've talked to them, you know, I've asked them how, you know, how did it go? And they go, we're exhausted. It's like, yes, you're exhausted. Right. This work is lifelong mm-hmm . And you've gotta take care of yourself and you've gotta play the long game. You can't, you can't see this as, as a quick fix, right.
Roberto Germán (32:41):
For those that want to support your work by getting a copy of the text and also following your individual platforms, where can they do that?
Henry J. Turner (32:59):
So the so the, so you can, the book, we have a, we have a couple of things, a couple additional resources as well. So please buy the book give us a, give us a review help us to get help other educators to, to, to see it. We are if you go to Henry J turner.com, there's a, a link for a course that you can take that goes along with the book. And there's also additional resources. We've got a whole website with study study questions, reflection questions. So we would encourage people to go there and we're all over social media. So you can you can find me at Turner HJ on Twitter Instagram at Turner underscore HJ.
Roberto Germán (33:44):
And just so I'm clear, the book can be [email protected].
Henry J. Turner (33:50):
So go to Amazon, I'd say, go to Amazon. But, but if you go to, he, we have a link to purchase the book. If you go to Henry J turner.com, we have a, we have links to, to to get you to, to purchase the book there as well, but you can go straight to Amazon and, and, and, or, you know, search or your, or your other, you know, other stores what are you in Google and search, you know, change the narrative and you should be able to purchase it.
Kathy Lopes (34:14):
Yes, we, it's on Kindle and paperback on Amazon and also Barnes and noble. You can find the book too, but again, like Henry said, it's, it's all over our social media platforms. And that particular website, which we were intentional about creating a page to support the material in the book on Henry J. Turner do.
Roberto Germán (34:31):
And Kathy, what is your individual platform?
Kathy Lopes (34:34):
So I'm all over the place. So I do have a Twitter account. @kathylopes21. My IG is @kathylopes21, and I also have my own consulting business. And that website is inclusionkonsulting.com, but it's with the K for, for KL. So inclusion, consulting.com. And I have some resources and some information there about how to, how to find me, how to reach me if, if you need me so,
Henry J. Turner (35:02):
And stay tuned, we're gonna be doing some work together over the summer. And you know, we'll be doing some stuff tied to the book and some book studies and, and whatnot as well. Yep.
Roberto Germán (35:13):
Hey folks, once again, the book has changed the narrative Henry Turner, Kathy. Lopes inspiring y'all to do things the right way to do things in an impactful way to share the leadership, share their responsibility and stay present in this work. Thank you both for being here. Thank you for all the insight, wishing you yeah. Much success with your book, change the narrative and supporting all the work that you're doing.
Kathy Lopes (35:52):
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Henry J. Turner (35:54):
Well, thank you, man. We appreciate you and appreciate the support that you, you you've given us. So thank you so much.
Kathy Lopes (36:01):
Yes. And I don't think we shared that our forward is written by you and your wife Larena
Roberto Germán (36:07):
Kathy Lopes (36:09):
Classroom. And that was a very, very exciting point for us when you both agreed to to write our forward and it's beautifully written. So we, we have to give you and your wife a shout out for that as well.
Henry J. Turner (36:19):
Roberto Germán (36:20):
Thank you. Honored to make a small contribution to something that's gonna be extremely impactful. As always your engagement in our classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show and write a review finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race bias, education and society. Go to multiculturalclassroom.com peace and love from your host. Roberto Germán.