Roberto German 00:01
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space, we talk about education, which is inclusive of, but not limited to what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto German. And Our Classroom is officially in session. Today's guest is Dr. Jamila Dugan. We're gonna be talking about avoiding equity traps and troupes. Dr. Jamila Dugan is an author, leadership coach and researcher. Jamila has dedicated her career to making equity more than just the buzzword. She works with individuals and organizations across the nation to develop and support transformational leaders who care deeply about advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion. Jamila is the co-author of Street Data: A Next Generation Model for Equity, Pedagogy, and School Transformation, focusing on culturally rich education environments and anti-racist approaches to reimagine learning. She has also co-hosted The Brave Spaces Institute that brings together hundreds of participants to learn how to lead inclusively. Peace people. Welcome back to Our Classroom. I'm here with Dr. Jamila Dugan. You said the Dominican in me came out. You know, I put it there. I put some sazón on. Jamila Dugan, and I'm glad I asked folks, and y'all have heard me say this before, different people I've had on the platform. It's good for us to ask how they pronounce their names, because we don't wanna say things wrong, right? All you have to do is ask. And so when I read the name in my head, it-- it reads as Jamila. But I ask, and it's pronounced Jamila. And-- and there's a lot of Jamila's out there who would be mad at y'all if you pronounce that name wrong. So get it right. I'm with the good doctor Jamila Dugan. And is blessed, blessed, blessed opportunity for us to have her on the platform. Previously we had Shane Safir and we talked about street data, right? Got data. So this is Got data part two. And-- and we're fortunate. We're fortunate to have-- to have had one co-author. Now we have the second co-author, and-- and we going to zero in today. We gonna zero in today on chapter two. Last time we got into street data, it was more of an overview, and that was wonderful. And today we have an opportunity to get a little more granular folks. And we don't have time to unpack the entire chapter two, but you should go and purchase the book if you haven't done so already. But we are gonna touch upon certain things that cross my mind as I was reading it. So, Dr. Jamila Dugan, thank you for being here.
Jamila Dugan 03:02
Thank you so much. I love that warm welcome. I'm so excited to be here.
Roberto German 03:07
Well, I'm excited to have you. And-- and listen, let's just go ahead and get right into it. I-I was reading chapter two, and it's titled No Shortcuts: Avoiding Equity Traps and Troupes. First of all, that's a great title, right? Great title for a chapter, great title for a book. That's just a great title. You had me hooked just on the title. And I know that article, you know, made its rounds and it was major. So props to you for-- for the amazing scholarship that you're bringing to the table and the way you're impacting people not just with your words, but certainly through your leadership. And we're gonna ground our conversation in this chapter. And-- and when I've read it, I was left in some suspense. Wow. I was like, "I need more. I need more. I need more." I don't-- and I can't wait for Street Data 2, in order to find out what happened to your son, Kingston. You-- you-- you mentioned that you-- your dreams for education were fading, be-- because he was beginning to loathe school. And I'm a parent also, so, ah, just even thinking about that, even thinking about that makes me inquieto, as we would say in Spanish. Un-- unsettled. And so, given what I read throughout the rest of the chapter and the book, I'm under the impression that your dream is not fading. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. However, I do need to know what transpired with Kingston. Is he loathing school? Have things changed for him? What-- where's my man Kingston at? How's he doing?
Jamila Dugan 04:40
I love that you're starting with this, and I can't wait for him to hear this so he can know that you were asking about how he's doing. It just, you know, highlights how important the-- our baby's voices are, right? And-- and just knowing that someone is caring about his-- his journey. And I'm just so-- so excited to be here and talk with you about all of this. And this-- this chapter that really came out of both my experience as an educator and school leader, but also as a-- as a parent, just increasingly, so much of this work is about my son Kingston and my daughter Gia's experience. It-- it just really is giving me a lot of energy and focus right now. So, just to give folks context. When you're saying what happened to-- to Kingston, if you haven't read chapter two, my son did really well in-- in traditional schooling, and when the pandemic hit, it was like immediately, immediately. He went from being a student who was doing really well to completely failing, to be honest. We cut his classes in half by the time we were midway through fourth grade. So in terms of where Kingston is, I-I said to you before we started recording that I'm in a really emotional place right now around my kids' experience with schooling and trying to be an educator. And so some of this is really visceral for me and very vulnerable, and I'm happy to share it because I think so many parents especially black parents, parents of-- of-- of students who have been pushed to the margins, I think are really having these things, these thoughts. So I wanna bring them to the surface. So with Kingston, Kingston on the whole is doing just fine.
Roberto German 06:19
Okay, I can-- I can breathe a little bit now. Slight sigh relief.
Jamila Dugan 06:24
Yes, he's doing just fine. Kingston is really finding himself as a young man. So when I wrote that he was in fourth grade and he's in sixth grade now.
Roberto German 06:33
No, he was in third grade.
Jamila Dugan 06:35
He was in third grade. Oh my gosh. That feels like a while. So he was in third grade and now he's in sixth grade. And let me just tell you like we're in a swag like confidence kinda place right now. He's really into reselling and all these different kind of things. So on the whole, Kingston is v-- is doing very, very well. He's back to his confident self. Does Kingston loath school? I'm gonna tell you what Kingston would say to this question. Kingston goes to school to socialize with his friends. That is why Kingston goes to school. And there's a lot of beauty in that. He has found-- he goes to a new school now since we've moved. He goes to a school where it's super diverse. He loves to be around all of his black and brown. I mean, he really points this out as important to him. I tried to move schools, he was like, "Uh-uh, I'm not going there." So he loves that. But if you ask him about his experience in the classroom, he's extremely bored. He's bored. He's been bored. He is right now trying to navigate the system as it exists. And so when I think about the work we are doing when we talk about working toward equity and street data, Kingston isn't loathing school, but he's pretty close to it. When we think about street data, if we heard the voices of our kids, he would tell you very honestly, he could tell you right now why it's boring. He could tell you what he wishes was different. He has many ideas about that. And so I think for me as a parent trying to do this work right now, I'm a little bit like, "It's amazing what other people they're thinking about." And also, oh, the school is not listening to him or really any other kids. Oh, they can help you so much. So that's where Kingston is a little bit. He's doing-- he's doing really well in general. But dang, if we listen to our babies, they could transform the schools today. He could do it today. All the kids.
Roberto German 08:33
And-- and you talked about co-creating with the students in the book. It's unfortunate that is not happening at Kingston school or most the schools in this country, really, let's be honest. But I'm glad to hear that he-- he's still active outside of school in terms of growing and pursuing knowledge. I extracted from what I read in the book that he's an avid reader. Hopefully--
Jamila Dugan 09:02
He was. He was an avid reader. He is an avid… but he's an avid media-- a litter-- he has a lot of media literacy.
Roberto German 09:11
All right. All right. Well. All right. We-- we-- we gonna take our wins, our victories when they come.
Jamila Dugan 09:16
Yeah.
Roberto German 09:17
All right. Well, my greetings to Kingston. Tell him to keep his head up and stay encouraged. And education happens outside of the four walls of the schoolhouse. It does happen in-- in the schoolhouse, but it's happening outside of the schoolhouse too. So as long as he-- he's continuing to-- to pursue knowledge. And he obviously has some-- some parents who are invested in him and are gonna guide him. So my guess is that he'll be fine, but I-I wish he was having a better schooling experience, and I appreciate you for-- for being honest about where he is at.
Jamila Dugan 09:53]
Oh. And can I just add Kingston's overall schooling experience he loves, but it's because the social aspect, the connect-- it's the friendship, the connection, the-- the ability to relate to other kids. He's learning so much about sociopolitical con-- sociopolitical context and culture and all of that. And it's just, we miss that. We really miss that. Whenever he's talking to his friends, he loves it, but then he gets into some of his classes and it's like, and so get on the computer and do this compliance task, and that's it. And so I don't wanna indicate that, you know, his schooling experience is terrible. I just, especially when I think about traps and troupes and street data, I just want us to build that bridge between what the kids really want and what they're saying they need and what we're actually doing. There's such a disconnect, and the babies can really, really see it. So, I-I just wanna clarify that piece.
Roberto German 10:49
No, no. Thank you for doing so. And-- and let's go ahead, let's get deeper into that. So what-- what are equity, traps and troupes, and how is this defined?
Jamila Dugan 10:58
Yeah, so equity, traps and troupes. So I would just say this pretty simply. Working toward equity is really about our disruption of practices that have been harmful. It's also about reconstruction. It's about relocating resources. It's about these things that help us move toward a path of justice, right? Equity, traps and troupes are the landmines that are already there, been there, and will are-- will actually continue to be there that are ready to catch us and stop us from doing the work, right? So we have this aspiration to work toward equity and be on this journey of justice, but sometimes we kind of go into it with blinders on as if it's not going to be difficult. And then when it is difficult, we're like, oh my gosh, it's so difficult where e-equity, traps and troupes is like, yep, there's traps. A trap is something that's there to catch and retain you. They're-- they are there. And a trope is something we've seen before, over and over again. And so traps and troupes put together things that get in the way of us doing that justice work.
Roberto German 12:01
And you provided a breakdown of the 10 most common equity, traps and troupes. Based on your observations and work, what would you deem as the top three equity, traps and troupes, and why do you think they are so common?
Jamila Dugan 12:19
Yeah. So I'm gonna say, first of all, context matters. So the top three can be different in different contexts, right? I see all of them everywhere. And so what I'm gonna say to you now is about what I'm thinking about in this moment, what I'm observing right now. But that can change. What I would've said to you two months ago is different from what I'm saying to you right now. So in thinking about this, the-- the first thing that comes to my mind is boomerang equity. That's the last one that I wrote about. And this trap is where, you know, you really get an analysis, an understanding of what's inequitable in a context. And you can articulate that. You can-- you-- you can-- you have plans around it or you've had brainstorming around it, and then you go right back to what you did before. And I think a very concrete example of this is us knowing, I mean, there's been so much research forever in a day about inequities in school forever in a day. Then we had this thing called the pandemic, if you haven't heard about it. And people got even more clear that there were inequities, right? And there was this huge excitement. I went to so many great webinars and conferences about how we could radically reimagine education coming back from the pandemic. And we came back learning loss. We gotta get 'em back to normal as quick as possible. You know, intervention of the yin yang. That is boomerang equity. That's something I'm seeing all over the place. And it's like, what are you doing? Stop doing that. So boomerang equity, I would say. Second, there is a lot of energy and I believe earnest intention to do right by kids and-- and teachers and educators as well.
And in that training, professional learning, something I offer all the time is something that people are interested. But spray and pray is when you might call on someone like you or me or other folks who are, you know, able to facilitate great learning around this work. And then you're like, "They're here, it's gonna be solved. Please, please, please, please, please, if they just train us three times, we'll be on an equitable track." Great. Now are we gonna talk about that in planning meeting? No, we're not. We don't have time for that. Are we gonna change anything? No, we're not. But we are gonna do this great training and it's gonna solve everything. And I just have seen time running that's related to doing equity. Not gonna happen. And I love doing the work I do, but we will not solve your problems. So spray and pray is something that I just see everywhere. And it can be even harder when you go to deep topics like restorative justice or restorative practices, which is so important. Our cultural responsive teaching, which are deep imperative practices, but you can't do it in three trainings. That's just not gonna happen. So spray and pray. And then the third one, which grinds my gears, and I think for so many people who understand and are close to issues of marginalization and oppression, we feel this. And there's so much labor associated with watching this happen. Superficial equity. When you say that this is something you're really taking on and you just, just do a little bit. The most concrete example I can give, I've said this to many people, is going to a school I was working with, love the people, you know, that-- that work there and all of that. And they're talking about really taking on, you know, issues of gender and race, and there's a lovely rainbow flag there and a lovely Black Lives Matter flag. And I'm in the classroom doing observations. I'm like, but you haven't talked to a single black kid in the entire class. In the hallway I can look at the way the interactions are happening and know this is not a safe space for the children you're saying you're focused on right now. So it becomes superficial when you put the pictures on the wall and the flags and all of that, but you don't actually change your practice. And that's something that I'm seeing all over the place as well, and really can be-- do more harm, right? When we do things like that. So those are the three I would call out, but lemme tell you, doing and tokenizing and all the siloing, they're all in the mix all the time.
Roberto German 16:26
Hmm. And-- and why do you think they're so common? Why-- why are they so in the mix?
Jamila Dugan 16:31
Yeah. So I talked to-- this didn't come just from my own brain, this came from observation and conversation with leaders and educators in the field at large. And I asked them that question, why are they so common? And the most common answers I hear to that question are, A, it's easy. We wanna feel like we have accomplished something, right? So if I can get the poster on the wall, at least you know, I'm trying to let you know that I care about this, right? It doesn't come from a place of malice oftentimes, it's just we wanna feel like we are accomplish--
Roberto German 17:04
Right. You wanna feel like you did something. Oh, let's come up with a diversity statement.
Jamila Dugan 17:08
Right. Let's do that, right? And now we have that, right? So I think that's one of the-- the things that I've heard. The second is fear. People are really scared to unearth things that are difficult and to stay with it when it gets difficult. And we can also, you know, bring in the elements of where you are-- where your positionality is. There can be more fear based on where you are situated in this world. So I think fear is a big piece of this. What happens if we actually, not only just name, let's just give an example. You know, Black Lives Matter. Let's say our black students matter in this context, and we wanna do right by them. What happens if we actually start to say we're gonna shift and center some of our practices around their experience? Who's not gonna like that, right? This is the same kind of conversation that comes up with detracting classes and things of that sort. So I think fear plays a big role. And then the third thing that I've heard just over and over and I have so much empathy for, and push for, don't get me wrong, push strong pushes for, is just, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do differently. We're so curriculumed, checklist, do this, standard, rigid, everything goes in a certain kind of way that to think creatively and to think differently and to move in a different way, it's-- it's-- it's almost-- it's become foreign to us. I often say like, put your Disney brain on. Like, think about a different world. How did they create the world-- Coco's world? How did they, you know, how did they create Moana's world? They had to dream that up. Black Panther, Wakanda, how did they do that? But we are very much like they told us to do it this way, so this is a way to do it. And I don't really know what it would look like to-- to kind of move in a different way.
Roberto German 18:58
Mm-hmm. Well, talking about moving in a different way. You list awareness as a core stance for climbing out of the traps and troupes. If you were supporting a school leader and opening a new school, what advice would you offer the school leader that would help avoid falling into the traps and troupes altogether? It-- we-- I know that the landmines are there, the traps are there, so even framing that, right, probably improbable, but nonetheless, what advice would you offer them to try to shift and-- and as much as possible where you can foresee the landmines, the traps, avoid that.
Jamila Dugan 19:39
Yeah, so I wanna say, because traps and troupes is so much about what is problematic, I-I-I-I-I like to bring people to the very first sentence at the tap-- top of the chapter, which says, "See the barriers, imagine what's possible." And so I think it's very important when we say awareness, we often go from this issue of equity or inequity matters to us. Let's go do stuff. And so I think we have to slow ourselves down. And I would offer a couple of pieces of advice. First of all, if you have an-- I mean, I hope that folks would be doing a lot of listening and understanding what it is people want in their-- in their school, right? But then after that, I always ask people to start in a place of radical dreaming. What are you actually trying to do in this school, in your leadership or whatever the case may be. I remember asking a-a friend of mine who is a leader, "Hey, what is your dream for, you know, the-- the students that you serve?" And she said something like, "You know, coming back to make sure that they can get back on grade level and make sure you know that they are on the right track." And I said, said, "That dream sucks. No offense. Tell me your dream for your son." And when she told me the dream for her son, it was about no matter what, that he would be able to have agency, no matter his race background, anything that there were, that-- that he could make possible what's in his heart, right? And when you have that kind of dream, when you put it yourself in that kind of place, what you're looking for, what you're aiming for becomes so different. And I think that some of that, some of the traps and troupes are, Shane talks about this a lot, are a part of the incarceration of the imagination that you just can't even see that there would be another way. So the first is, I'd be leading with a spirit of radical dreaming. Aside from that, I think the-- the-- one of the things we put at the back of that chapter is something called fluency first. And if you're gonna be leading people in the spirit of equity, you're gonna be in collaboration with people in the spirit of equity, then you need to have fluency around these ideas. Do-- do you understand what racism is or what gender inequity is, or what white supremacy is? Do you understand what liberation is? Do you understand what reconstruction, I mean, do you understand what it means to really rebuild and really understand these things that have gotten us in the place that we are in now?
And having that fluency allows you to talk about these things in sophisticated and nuanced ways that, again, help you get in front of equity, traps and troupes. 'Cause you know what you're talking about, and it's not with perfection, don't get me wrong. But when somebody asks you, "Hey, we're working toward equity. Can you define what that means?" And if you can define it, then you are just more likely to say, "Whoa, well this doesn't actually align with what we say when we're talking about working toward equity." And then after that, I have a set of inquiry questions that I developed for the equity, traps and troupes that help not only have awareness of them, but say that-- that allow you to say, "What can we do instead?" So if you think about this idea of doing equity, one of the inquiry questions I have is, "Are we-- when we have an initiative or whatever the case is, are we doing two, are we doing with?" Which causes you to stop yourself and say, "Woo, okay, I know that doing equity is a-- is a trap we've been falling into. Is there something I can put in position for myself to move in a different route?" So I think fluency, radical dreaming and really having ways for you to check yourself along the way is important. And then of course, gathering street data, like you should be oriented to consistently gathering the data that is closest to the issues or the opportunities we have to transform education.
Roberto German 23:34
Thanks for sharing. I wanna read this excerpt from your book. You're talking about radical dreaming. This is something that stuck out to me. "Imagine a world where school feeds or innate creativity and where educators and students have the time and space to co-construct a vision for learning, not driven by mandates and test scores, but by their deepest hopes and dreams for the future. In this world, students developmental needs and interests drive instructional design. In this world, deep engagement is not a luxury, it is the baseline for every educator and child who enters the school doors. In this world, we are satisfied not by numbers on sporadic tests, but rather by observing a moment of knowing in our children. This visceral delight really comes from a bubbling test, but from our experience of watching mastery happen in real time." Ooh, that was hot. You gonna have to take that on the road.
Jamila Dugan 24:53
But, you know, I wrote an article this year called Radical Dreaming that was really building off that. I wrote that in education leadership. I think it came out last November or December that really expanded on that idea so much because at this point, you know, I think the equity, trap and troupes were important for people to understand and build awareness around. But then what do you do next? It has to be centered in radical dreaming and everything you said. I'm like, yes, that right there.
Roberto German 25:24
Everything you said, I just read it. Oh, that was powerful. That was powerful. I'm gonna have to perform that somewhere when I'm doing my poetry.
Jamila Dugan 25:31
You should. You should. Build a poem for us around-- I think-- I mean, could you imagine if we just sat with something like that? You know, and again, that didn't just come from my brain. That was literally looking at babies, you know, in-- in classrooms, really thinking about what was my experience. I had a phenomenal experience as a teacher and really thinking about just what do I really, really want? And that is like rigorous work, but then coming out of that, you get things like that. And I feel really proud about that. I'm not gonna lie.
Roberto German 26:03
So, and I didn't have this question prepared beforehand. It's coming to me now. At this moment, what do you really want for education?
Jamila Dugan 26:14
Yes. So, you know, I think so much of it is you literally just read it out loud. But if I had to be like super simple with it, because I'm all about simplicity right now. I've-- I've been working-- Shane and I've been working with students and I'm like, "Let's get rid of some of this jargons." Co-design, co-construction, stop and listen, then do what the kids told you to do. That is what I would like to see happen because they've been telling us the same thing forever in a day. I've been reading research from like hecka long ago, and I'm like, they still saying the same thing. Elders been saying the same thing. And I'll give you a very concrete example. So, you know, we just had holiday break and my children were at home and my daughter, you know, sometimes she comes with me to work. Shout out to you, Gia, love you. And sometimes she comes with me to work and she was watching me do something and I was like, "You wanna do some work with me?" She was like, well-- sh-- "Tell me what it is." I was like, "Okay." So I said to her, "Can-- what if you just wrote real quick like 10 things that make a classroom boring and 10 things that make a classroom great. Just from your experience." 'Cause she loves her teacher. Shout out to your teacher, Ms. Becks, you're amazing. But it took her 15 minutes to do this. What she wrote, I'll share it with you after, if you would like, was super compelling. Things that make it fun, 30 second dance button. Tell me about yourself. Let me talk to my friends. Having discussion. Don't make us-- don't make us be silent unless it's absolutely necessary. These were things that were super concrete and if you took little Gia's list and you just planned with that for the-- the rest of the week, the rest of the month, whatever the case is, you would transform every kid's experience. And you don't have to choose Gia's, choose Bobby's. I don't really care who-- who you choose. But what I would really like to see at this point is for us to choose some kids, choose a kid, all of the kids, whatever the case is, and start designing from what they are asking us to do. Because the-- the thing that's so beautiful, it's not coming from a deficit place. These people like this [inaudible 00:28:19] kids, they're in a world that we have never seen. And I think every generation has been like that, but they're-- the-- the-- the-- the-- the amount of information that they have, the amount of creativity they have, the amount-- the amount that they can literally change something tomorrow is-- is-- it's crazy at this point. I'll just say this one other example that came from Kingston. I asked Kingston, how should assessment change?
What should we do per testing? This is what Kingston said. And I wrote this in the Radical Dreaming article. He was like, "Mom, I'm gonna say something about video games. Don't get mad at me." And I was like, "Fine. Say what you wanna say." He was like, "I really think for assessments, every kid should have to create a video game and that video game should be based on whatever the content was, but they should get to make the video game that they wanna make. When they make the video game, then they should have to teach their classmates how to play that video game. And then once every student has learned to play everybody's video games, that video-- those video games should become a part of a library that stay in that school so that all kids can play those video games." And what he pulled out of that is like, first of all, I would have to know the content, whatever the thing is, I'd have to know it real deeply. I'd be excited 'cause I'm about to make a game and I want everybody, you know, to win or lose. You know, I want 'em to be challenged in my-- my game. And he was like, it would create so much connection for us. It would be my dream if a-- if an answer like that would be taken seriously and that would-- we would really start to design from places like that. And I hear things like this from kids all the time, all kinds of kids, all ages. And I really just wanna see us co-design, listen to what they say and do something and then ask them how did it go? And then do something again and keep on going.
Roberto German 30:02
The visceral delight would come from watching mastery happen in real time.
Jamila Dugan 30:09
Yes. Yes.
Roberto German 30:12
And this sound like what you just laid out or-- or what Kingston described that he would want to see happen in terms of assessment, there's-- there's mastery in there, right? You-- you're using gaming to, you know, as-- as the content, fine. But all the skills that they have to develop to create that. Like, yeah, all right y'all, you know what? You could go ahead and play this thing 'cause you gonna have to do so much work.
Jamila Dugan 30:42
So much work.
Roberto German 30:43
That's going to reinforce skills that they actually need today, right? In this day and age, those are the skills that they need. They need other skills, but those-- those skills are vital. So, props to Kingston for the idea. Prop-- props to Gia, I believe you said your daughter's name is Gia, for sharing her vision of what the classroom should feel like. And she described like one of-- one of the pillars of textured teaching is flexibility. And-- and so part of what I extracted from what Gia wants is that flexibility, the flexibility to talk to her peers, the-- the flexibility to move around, right? We-- we have our kids sitting down and stationary and you-- and you talked about this in-- in the book, right? The 20 minutes of recess that, you know, that-- that-- that issue, right? That's something that I'm like, oh, over here when I'm seeing what-- what's been happening in the schools and whatnot and I'm like, w="Wait a second, this ain't gonna work for my son. He's way too active." 20 minutes--
Jamila Dugan 31:45
Developmentally-- that's developmentally appropriate. You know, that's what we miss so much. They should be playing and talking and be at recess. How is that the thing that we keep shrinking? It's-- it's-- that's another trap and trope.
Roberto German 31:58
Indeed. Indeed, indeed, indeed. So I'm gonna modify this last question. If you had the opportunity to have lunch with any-- anyone dead or alive, who would it be and what, this is where the modification comes in, what street data would you be looking to collect from them?
Jamila Dugan 32:31
Well, luckily I have my-- my four that I always go to. That's gonna Malcolm X, it's gonna be Muhammad Ali, it's gonna be Maya Angelou, it's gonna be Ida B. Wells. Every single time that is who I wish, if there was any way to take me back to be able to talk to those four people, I would love to. And--- and the first thing I would say about all of them, but really this-- this particular thing sticks out in Muhammad Ali, Malcolm X and Ida B. Wells is that visceral, that visceralness around what justice is and what they will and won't do and stand for, but in such a sophisticated and nuanced way. I mean, the way that Muhammad Ali questions our issues with colorism and-- and blackness and things of that sort. He-- he's-- he's so confused by why we do not have an asset-based mindset around blackness. And I think Muhammad Ali, Ida B Wells as well, the visceral passion. And then Maya Angelou just the steadfast. She is so steadfast in her knowing. And so I would-- I'm an energy-- I'm an energy person, so it's their energy that I would wanna just soak up because I-I feel so powerful whenever I'm with my elders. But in terms of street data, I would wanna gather for them-- from them. It's really the same thing that I gather from my elders, which is, if you were to say what you want us to do tomorrow, what is that? And then I'm gonna go do it. I mean, I-I really specifically, what is it that in schools, what do you feel like we need to be doing tomorrow? What should we stop doing? And I wanna ask that que-- and-- and they already have big vision, so I already know what they're, you know, that they'll-- they will let that out. So those are my four. I look-- I look to them for their energy, their spirits and they are just, they're extremely inspiring people.
Roberto German 34:22
So this is the opportunity to share a message of encouragement for the people.
Jamila Dugan 34:31
Yes, a message of encouragement. I think that it is important for us to honor and feel so privileged for the opportunity to be here in this moment in time. There's so many people who aren't here in this moment in time, and yet somehow some way we have been allowed and given the privilege to be able to do something and something that matters and you're here. Well, I'm here. We're here, right? And so this is an incredibly difficult time for educators right now, and it's really a-- it's an incredibly difficult time for people. And yet we're here. So if we were to conjure up the spirits of Maya Angelou and the three others that I mentioned, what would they ask of us to do? And whenever it is difficult for me, that's what I really rest on. What would they ask me to do? Because I know things are challenging for me. But do you wanna go back to the… the… Do you wanna go back there? I-I don't think so. And maybe you do, but the point here is that we have a privilege and an honor to be here. And I just encourage us to keep doing something and doing that, something from that place of groundedness and steadfastness like Maya Angelou and that place of visceral passion because we won't always be here, and I just want us to be able to be remembered for what we did do. And we have that opportunity right now. So I-I'm just grateful to be able to be in this conversation with you in this moment in time and grateful to every person who listens to this and is doing the work on the ground gathering street data, being the street data every day for our schools and our students, and really our broader communities. So that's my word of encouragement. Let's be-- let's really honor the privilege we have to be here and let's just do it. Like let's dream. Let's-- let's make it happen. I'm gonna keep talking about what Kingston and Gia said, and every kid that I know has said, because the more that I say what they have said, and the more I position them to be able to speak, that's how the something happens. So that's my-- that's my message.
Roberto German 36:49
Absolutely. Radical dreaming too, right?
Jamila Dugan 36:52
Yes.
Roberto German 36:53
So where can folks follow you? Certainly they're gonna be some individuals that listen to this and say, "Hey, I, you know, I need to grab the book. I need to book her as a consultant." Where can folks follow you? I need to read her blog.
Jamila Dugan 37:08
Yeah, so I think Twitter is probably the easiest @JamilaDugan, and I think you have that in the notes somewhere. J-A-M-I L-A D-U-G-A-N. On Twitter, I post there articles, podcast that I'm a part of. I-I often post there. And then my website is Jamiladugan.com. You can find out about events that I might be putting together or facilitating. And then I would encourage folks if you, I-I have three articles with Education Leadership Magazine. I feel like that's where you can really get the meet around what I'm thinking about at-- at a moment in time. And Radical Dreaming is something I'm really focused on. And when you go to my Twitter, look out for the next Radical Dreaming workshop. Transformative, and that's not my words, that's the participants' words. And I-I cannot wait to put that on again with a team of teachers who receive the majority of the proceeds from this workshop. And I think it puts a lot of the things that we're talking about into real action. So that's where you can find me. Look out for that on Twitter.
Roberto German 38:11
As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race bias, education, and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com. Peace and love from your host, Roberto German.
