Roberto Germán [00:00:00]:
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Roberto Germán [00:00:46]:
Welcome back to Our Classroom. Hope you are all well. I am once again joined by Lorena Germáng, and today we're going be talking about the White gaze in action. Or just the White gaze?
Lorena Germán [00:01:06]:
Fun.
Roberto Germán [00:01:09]:
What is the White gaze? Does everybody have this gaze? Is there another gaze? Is there a Black gaze? Is there, is there.
Lorena Germán [00:01:23]:
All the other gazes?
Roberto Germán [00:01:24]:
All the other gazes?
Lorena Germán [00:01:25]:
Yes. Yes.
Roberto Germán [00:01:27]:
Is there a disability gaze? I don't know. What's this gaze stuff?
Lorena Germán [00:01:34]:
Okay, so I'm gonna. I'm going to answer that question and make no assumptions, meaning I'm going to describe it and explain it as if people don't know anything. Because I think it's important for us to establish language that we can agree on so that we can all kind of understand what's happening. So we know what gaze means, right? A gaze is a look or watching when you are envisioning or seeing something. And so a White gaze is a concept or a term made popular by Miss Toni Morrison. And there are videos and interviews where she's explaining this and talking about it. But in essence, what she's explaining is that the White gaze becomes this standard of thinking or this standard of an audience, this expectation that your reader is a White person. And so, you know, one of the things that she explains is that, you know, it's like if lives other than White ones, so Black lives, any other lives, don't matter outside of the White gaze.
Lorena Germán [00:02:45]:
Right? So what she is alluding to there is the request that she had to deal with over and over again around is she going to ever write about people other than Black people? As if that's not enough, as if that's not worthy of her talent and time. So for us as educators, the White gaze certainly is something that we can discuss with students in that kind of literary, practical way. But I think as educators, too, we have to think about how our gaze, for those of us raised in this country or born and living in this country, how our gaze might also be a White gaze. And that is something that anyone can be participant of. Like this is not just something limited to White folks, but any one of us living here can most certainly be functioning with a White gaze.
Roberto Germán [00:03:44]:
Mmm. Interesting. Interesting. All right, so the White gaze is accessible to everybody.
Lorena Germán [00:03:49]:
Yes, yes. Oh, and you had asked about the other gazes. And I think that, you know, I don't know, that's a really good question. Like, I wonder what folks think if there are other gazes. I think that there's, like, you're either in this gaze or you're on the outside of this gaze. And when you are outside of this gaze, you're kind of like, in some ways, free and able to just write about, think about function in this space of. I am just going to speak to the people that I speak to, and that's that. And I'm not going to be concerned about whether my audience, whether I'm writing on a blog, whether I'm writing on social media, whether it's a book.
Lorena Germán [00:04:33]:
Right? Like, I'm not going to be concerned about this. What maybe in mainstream society is considered to be your average american, quote unquote. Right. Who we as a society would know what kind of profile we're talking about. And I think that folks who operate outside of the White gaze are literally not necessarily concerned about that person, that listener.
Roberto Germán [00:05:00]:
Yeah. And thinking about other gazes, I could see how, as an able bodied person, I would, you know, I operate in that gaze. Right. There's a lot of things that I'm not considering as it relates to folks who are not able bodied and some of the challenges that they experience. However, we're talking about the White gaze, and one of the reasons we're talking about the White gaze is because it's an election year. And so we know this pandering happening to racial groups, and it's a common affair during election years, as they always provide us with salient examples to analyze the White gays and how stereotypes function.
Lorena Germán [00:05:41]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:05:42]:
And one of those examples was this wild take on Fox News.
Lorena Germán [00:05:48]:
Oh, my goodness.
Roberto Germán [00:05:49]:
Yeah. By a Fox News pundit, Raymond Arroyo. Interesting. And that goes to, you know, the point, right.
Lorena Germán [00:05:59]:
It can affect all of us.
Roberto Germán [00:06:01]:
And, you know, we don't know anything about Raymond Arroyo, but his name's kind of a dead giveaway. You know, he's tied to some type of spanish speaking group. Right. But the point is he was on Fox TV talking about Black folks gon really support and get behind Trump because of the new Trump sneakers. You know, them gold, the gold Trump, the gold plated Trump sneakers going for, like, I don't know, three, $400. Yeah, it's crazy. You like them sneakers?
Lorena Germán [00:06:43]:
Oh, my goodness. You like them hotness, don't ask me silly questions.
Roberto Germán [00:06:50]:
Listen, the moment was cringe worthy, to say the least. Oh, my goodness.
Lorena Germán [00:06:59]:
I mean, it's just like, so I did a post on this and it, the moment. So here's what happens right in the clip. He, this guy, this, this, I don't know what. He is a speaker? Was he a guest?
Roberto Germán [00:07:14]:
He's a commentator, FoX News commentator.
Lorena Germán [00:07:17]:
So he hops on.
Roberto Germán [00:07:18]:
Raymond Arroyo, right?
Lorena Germán [00:07:19]:
And so he's like, oh, Trump is amazing because he knows culture and, you know, because he knows that the Black community likes sneakers. He's made a sneaker. And I'm sitting there like, this guy is serious. He really thinks that this is okay, that this is intelligent, and that this is true. Like that, right? And that, to me, is an example.
Roberto Germán [00:07:46]:
All Black people are sneakerheads, right?
Lorena Germán [00:07:50]:
But here's the thing about that, right? Like, this is how the White gaze comes in, because this person is clearly looking at a whole group of people through the lens of not those people. He is talking about an entire group of people through the lens of ignorant White folks. It's a stereotypical lens. And so what he is doing is saying, hey, other White folks, look. See the stereotype that we think is true. Look, Trump is selling them sneakers, and it's because he knows it must be true, right?
Roberto Germán [00:08:23]:
And Black folks are going to vote.
Lorena Germán [00:08:27]:
For Donald Trump because of some gold sneakers.
Roberto Germán [00:08:30]:
Because Donald Trump came out with some gold sneakers.
Lorena Germán [00:08:34]:
It's just offensive. Oh, man, the layers to this, right? Like, there's so many layers to this, but the White. But the White gaze is definitely involved.
Roberto Germán [00:08:46]:
Yeah. Yeah, this was gross.
Lorena Germán [00:08:49]:
I wanna, I wanna just review real quick what this looks like in action, right? So here's one example. We're seeing it in the news. We're gonna keep seeing it. Unfortunately, this year, with all of this election and people saying all kinds of things, and, and I feel like once you see it, you kind of can't unsee it. But some other examples about how we can see the White gays at work in our lives is, for example, you know, when you're at a place of employment and there's a policy around hair that privileges straight hair. So why, why is this an example of the White gaze? Because underlining that policy is the belief, right? Is the perception and the point of view, or so the gaze, that this particular type of hair is more professional, is more aesthetically pleasing, put together neater, etcetera. And so you have here another example, right, of seeing something that is actually very much super subjective. If you were in another country that's not necessarily even a sign of beauty.
Lorena Germán [00:09:58]:
It's like, oh, maybe your hair is flat. That isn't necessarily seen as professional. But anyway, so here in the US, we. We have this issue around hair. We just did a podcast on. On a discriminatory situation around hair. Another example of the White gaze at work is demanding a particular, like, size of clothing, specifically addressing the clothing of a cultural group. So again, we are seeing this White, heteronormative, right, like this type of belief system of what is appropriate, of what is good and right and even moral being turned into policy, policing and punishing language that is either regional or cultural that deviates from the quote unquote dominant standard English.
Lorena Germán [00:10:55]:
This is also an example of the White gays in action. And I think you can also think about this as, like, an extension or a deeper way of thinking about, like, stereotypes and generalizations. Right. So what are the ideas? What is the, let's say, the abstract that happens in our mind that then pushes us to make stereotypes and generalizations, and then that's where. That's where the White gaze comes in.
Roberto Germán [00:11:23]:
Yeah. And. Right. Thinking about these stereotypes and building off of the Fox News pundit Raymond Arroyo, brother Basil Wajd had shared, and when you made the post on Instagram, commented that, yeah, he showed the video to his class. He's a teacher. And that since the Civil Rights act of 1968, the Republicans as well as Democrats have had a benign neglect policy towards Black people. Both parties have yet to offer anything he says, specific or tangible, to Black Americans. It has been, vote for me for cool sneakers in this case.
Roberto Germán [00:12:11]:
Or I could play the saxophone. Bill Clinton.
Lorena Germán [00:12:15]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:12:15]:
Or I keep hot sauce in my bag.
Lorena Germán [00:12:19]:
Oh, my goodness. Hillary. Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:12:24]:
Didn't Kamala Harris do that, too?
Lorena Germán [00:12:26]:
Maybe. I don't know. I can't remember.
Roberto Germán [00:12:29]:
I think it was Kamala. Not Hillary.
Lorena Germán [00:12:31]:
No, definitely Hillary.
Roberto Germán [00:12:32]:
But maybe it was both.
Lorena Germán [00:12:33]:
Maybe, man.
Roberto Germán [00:12:35]:
I'm pretty sure Kamala did that, too. I would have to check which. And, yeah, I would have to confirm also, but in the case that she did, it would reinforce what's being said in terms of the White gays, you know, doesn't restrict itself to anybody or any particular ethnic group or racial group. You know, we could all fall victim to the White gaze. I'm sure. I've been there.
Lorena Germán [00:13:05]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I don't really want to even make this about politics or political parties. I think it's simply that our moment, like, literally 2024, it's an election year, so we're gonna see it everywhere. But we were seeing it last year, the year before that.
Roberto Germán [00:13:21]:
Right?
Lorena Germán [00:13:22]:
Like, we've seen it all the time, and it's. And literature is a really good place for us to see it some more just because we have, you know, the opportunity to read writing, right? So, like, we get to see who this author had in mind as they were writing. So one of the ways to notice the White gaze, which I've talked about before, is, for example, in a book written by a bilingual author. So an author from any other country or an author who speaks another language, and the ways that they treat the language in their book shows whether or not they are operating from the White gaze. So, for example, there are authors who will write a book and include words in other languages that. And then they explain it right after, or they italicize those words or phrases. And that's one way.
Roberto Germán [00:14:18]:
What, you don't like italics?
Lorena Germán [00:14:20]:
No, no, that's not it. Italics are pretty. But that's one way to say, oh, I am assuming my audience needs this explanation, which means I am not assuming that I am writing to the people like me. And I think it's powerful when authors don't do that because, for example, like Elizabeth Acevedo, she was just in a conversation, in an interview with Julia Alvarez, two of our faves, and someone was asking her about how come you don't italicize, how come you don't explain your terms. And she's like, I don't assume my audience doesn't know this. She's like, I assume that my audience is either going to understand it or will do the work to figure it out and follow along. She's like, when I had to read these things in school, nobody cared to define things for me. Authors didn't.
Lorena Germán [00:15:11]:
They just either expected me to do the work or they thought that I was their audience.
Roberto Germán [00:15:15]:
Yeah, that's a valid point.
Lorena Germán [00:15:17]:
You know? And so that's what this comes down to, is, who are you writing for? Who is on your mind as you're writing? And what are the things that you don't have to explain? You know, like, if you're from a small town, a small rural town in Kentucky, like, there's jokes you can make in your neighborhood that you don't have to explain, and that comes across in your writing as well. You know, like, if we're in our hometown with Lawrence, there's jokes we can make. We could say things like, oh, you know, crazy Joe. And anybody from Lawrence knows who Krazy Joe is.
Roberto Germán [00:15:48]:
Yeah, but you can't say that outside of.
Lorena Germán [00:15:50]:
Right. But outside of Lawrence, you'd have to explain it.
Roberto Germán [00:15:54]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:15:54]:
You know, or provide enough context clues that it's okay. Like, we're just gonna keep going, and you're just gonna have to do a little bit of extra work to figure that one out.
Roberto Germán [00:16:03]:
Sure.
Lorena Germán [00:16:04]:
You know, and so that that's how you can kind of try to start catching that in the books that you're reading.
Roberto Germán [00:16:15]:
All right. In the books that you're reading. But can this apply also beyond the classroom space, the traditional learning space? How about in other environments?
Lorena Germán [00:16:29]:
Yeah, I mean, you know, I just covered, like, policies and workspaces for sure. I mean, you can see the White gays at work everywhere. We started this by talking about politics, you know?
Roberto Germán [00:16:40]:
I do know. Cause I'm the one who surfaced. Yes, indeed, indeed. So, as we prepare to wrap up. Cause we wanted to make this a quick hitter, what are three considerations for our listeners?
Lorena Germán [00:16:58]:
Yeah. First, I would do some research and look up White gaze online, see what comes up. There's so much on it already. There's people who've written articles, blogs, and you can certainly look up the videos where Toni Morrison explains it. I think two, practice identifying it. Look in the news. How are headings written? What's the clickbait? Like, what are these books? And, you know, like, how can you see it in the world around you? And then three, shameless plug. But I talk about this.
Lorena Germán [00:17:34]:
I explain the White gaze, and I go deeper into all of this in the anti racist teacher reading instruction workbook, and even more so, I go into it in the course, and so people can go check it out on our website and get it and join and be part of our, you know, community as we continue to learn and. And do better and see things around us.
Roberto Germán [00:18:00]:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen, folks, again, we all have different gazes for which we view the world and for which we formulate our thoughts, state certain things. Right. It's connected to our biases, and we gotta work to dismantle that. In this particular case, as it relates to the White gays, there's a lot for us to be examining and for us to deconstruct so we don't fall victim to saying outlandish things about people groups, as did this Fox News pundit. Now, I don't think he's an outlier in this.
Roberto Germán [00:19:00]:
I think this is probably more common, unfortunately, than we would like it to be. And again, you know, I'm sure at some point I've said something that has reinforced the White gays. You have said something that has reinforced the White gaze. However, we're doing the work. So, yeah, yeah, you know, we.
Lorena Germán [00:19:25]:
This is ongoing, right?
Roberto Germán [00:19:27]:
Fighting against this. We are deconstructing, we are rewiring our brains. We are working against our biases in order to view people in a more humane manner, to treat people fairly, to express ourselves in ways that are helpful and not harmful. And that's what we want to encourage you to do. So, thank you for engaging, and we will catch you on the next episode.
Roberto Germán [00:20:07]:
As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is great. Greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show, and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race, bias, education, and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com. Peace and love from your host, Robelto Germán.
