Roberto Germán [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space, we talk about education, which is inclusive of, but not limited to what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto Germán, and Our Classroom is officially in session. Lee and Lowe is the largest and most trusted multicultural children's book publisher in the US. A family run, independent and certified 100% minority owned business enterprise, Lee and Lowe produces high quality books about everyone for everyone, along with free educator resources to make meaningful use of each book in today's classroom. Email [email protected] today to start building a custom collection tailored to to your unique needs, goals, and budget.
Roberto Germán [00:01:07]:
Peace back again. All right, y'all, we ain't wasting no time. It's Roberto and Lorena.
Lorena Germán [00:01:15]:
Hey.
Roberto Germán [00:01:15]:
And we gon dive into this one.
Lorena Germán [00:01:19]:
Let me just say that I'm very happy to be here, colleague, and I appreciate the continuous invitation to join in the conversation. I am encouraged by your collegiality.
Roberto Germán [00:01:33]:
Right on, right on. Well, welcome back.
Lorena Germán [00:01:38]:
All right, if you've missed any other podcast, I am doing the best that I can to not be fired or banned. So that's why you're gonna hear me refer to him as my.
Roberto Germán [00:01:49]:
Without further delay, let's just jump right in.
Lorena Germán [00:01:52]:
Okay, fine.
Roberto Germán [00:01:54]:
All right.
Roberto Germán [00:01:54]:
So you had written in a post a while ago that you can't teach the book the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, one of your favorites. Ha ha. And not disgust. Drum roll, please. The n word. You state that ignoring it is irresponsible. How so? And how does a teacher engage their class in a discussion around this very controversial and complicated word?
Roberto Germán [00:02:27]:
How?
Roberto Germán [00:02:27]:
You know, it's like, if you're in the classroom, I. And I understand a lot of people who've been there, like, yo, they're in the classroom. And this. Hesitate.
Roberto Germán [00:02:35]:
Ouch.
Roberto Germán [00:02:36]:
Right?
Roberto Germán [00:02:36]:
Pins and needles walking on eggshells. How do you teach this?
Lorena Germán [00:02:44]:
So dramatic. It's a dramatic thing, but yes. And let me just clarify. I was. When I wrote that blog post several years ago, I was talking about Huck Finn. But you could really discuss this with so many other books. Like mockingbird, right? Like, there's so many other books that feature this word or the hate u give and others. So, you know, one of the things that I explained in that blog is that it begins with love.
Lorena Germán [00:03:12]:
And I say it that way because I think it's really important for teachers to.
Roberto Germán [00:03:17]:
All we need is love.
Roberto Germán [00:03:19]:
What song is that?
Roberto Germán [00:03:21]:
You. Come on, man.
Lorena Germán [00:03:22]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I got it, I got it.
Roberto Germán [00:03:23]:
Know your music?
Lorena Germán [00:03:24]:
No, but I do.
Lorena Germán [00:03:25]:
Okay.
Lorena Germán [00:03:25]:
Don't interrupt me, please.
Lorena Germán [00:03:26]:
I'm focused.
Roberto Germán [00:03:27]:
Sorry.
Lorena Germán [00:03:28]:
So, anyway, I say that it begins with love, just like I do in texture, teaching, when I'm talking about having these types of conversations with students. Because when you start from a place of love, that is going to involve respect, that's going to involve tenderness and care. And so when we approach a conversation where people can be harmed, whether they're in the room or not, that love should hopefully guide us to be respectful and to be careful with how we have these conversations and grounding the class and an understanding that the topic we're about to discuss is controversial. Right. And that a lot of people have different and strong opinions about it, but that in this class, as we're looking at and talking about this word, we're going to approach it seriously.
Lorena Germán [00:04:23]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:04:23]:
Like, this is a somber conversation, even if there are funny moments, but that we're still looking at it through an academic lens.
Roberto Germán [00:04:31]:
You know, I think that people could lead from a place of love and still mess up.
Roberto Germán [00:04:37]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:04:38]:
They can have the right intention and still the impact doesn't.
Lorena Germán [00:04:43]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:04:44]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:04:44]:
You know, you still can have a negative impact.
Lorena Germán [00:04:46]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:04:46]:
Like, what you want to do is just not. What happened just went left for you.
Roberto Germán [00:04:50]:
And so let's dig deeper in terms of strategy and planning and approach and whatnot, because I think there are a lot of loving teachers that don't necessarily teach this the right way.
Lorena Germán [00:05:04]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lorena Germán [00:05:06]:
Well, I mean, first of all, we've got to be humble enough to apologize, to come back to the group and say, hey, what? I made a terrible mistake. And this is what it was. This is what I learned. This is how I should have done it, and that's how I'm gonna do it moving forward.
Roberto Germán [00:05:23]:
All right.
Lorena Germán [00:05:24]:
And create space for the class to. To kind of engage with you in that conversation. I also think it really depends. Like, it just depends for me to even answer this question.
Roberto Germán [00:05:34]:
Can we back it up, though?
Roberto Germán [00:05:35]:
Can we back it up?
Roberto Germán [00:05:36]:
Because you already have teachers apologizing for stuff, and I'm trying to. I'm trying to, like, not even.
Lorena Germán [00:05:42]:
Oh, you're not talking.
Roberto Germán [00:05:44]:
Can we help them not even get the place of having to apologize? Can we offer them some proactive strategies that they can implement as to teaching this effectively and as a result, it doesn't cause the harm.
Lorena Germán [00:06:03]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:06:05]:
And let me finish what I was saying. But I think it's okay for us to address that piece because that applies to any kind of lesson, and fear of harm is what stops teachers from addressing these conversations, right. You know, we're going to, most probably at some point in one, at least every school year, cause some kind of harm. We're gonna make a mistake. We're imperfect beings, right? And so I think humility goes a long way here, but I won't. I won't dwell on that. So strategies, background building is important. Help kids and older students and adults, whoever you're working with, to understand the meaning of this word, right? Like, to understand the difference between denotation, what something means, and connotation, how a word is used, and what social meanings and implications it has.
Lorena Germán [00:07:00]:
So that's one thing, right? Is to understand that the original word was, in Spanish, negro, meaning Black, and that it evolved in the linguistic use and the dropping of this letter and that sound, etcetera. And so we get to the n word that, you know, we know today. And then obviously, you can also have a conversation around the difference between the n word that ends in a and the one that ends in eR. That's an entirely, you know, that's a whole different thing. And it's wild because we're talking about two letters, three letters, right. But that is a conversation around etymology, denotation, connotation, linguistics, and society. It could be a really beautiful conversation.
Roberto Germán [00:07:48]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:07:48]:
And talking about conversation, we know that student voice matters, and their input should be welcome. And so let's talk about students needing to speak and be heard.
Lorena Germán [00:08:00]:
Yeah, I mean, I think definitely starting the conversation is it's important to just do check ins, right? Like some emotional check ins. How are you doing? Yeah, this. I'm nervous, too. We're about to talk about this really big deal.
Lorena Germán [00:08:14]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:08:15]:
And so kind of that temperature check in the room with everybody who's participating. How are you doing? How are you feeling? And then moving into, like, so what do you think about this word? Is it a big deal? And having them do a little self assessment, maybe you collect these answers to see if their opinion changes. By the time you're done with this unit or this lesson, you know, whether it's a day, three days, two weeks, that's. That's always interesting to see if anybody's mind has changed about this word and maybe their use of the word or the general use of the word. But getting their voices in there is going to be really important so that they feel like, yeah, this is really relevant. And I get to participate in not just when I'm told in these conversations.
Lorena Germán [00:08:59]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:08:59]:
But also in how we move along through this learning process.
Roberto Germán [00:09:05]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:09:05]:
And in addition to that hopefully there's a diverse range of voices and points of view.
Lorena Germán [00:09:10]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:09:10]:
And if you're lacking.
Lorena Germán [00:09:12]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:09:13]:
That's. That's the beauty of Zoom. We have it now. We can't unhave it. Right. And there's videos and there's audios and there's spoken word poems. Like, there's so many ways to bring in diverse points of view, you know, to just enrich the conversation.
Roberto Germán [00:09:31]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:09:31]:
You could also look at partnering with other schools, other educators.
Roberto Germán [00:09:40]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:09:41]:
And they don't necessarily have to be there physically. You mentioned Zoom, so there's ways to bring folks into your classroom by utilizing technology. So, you know, let's stop taking shortcuts, let's stop making excuses, and let's think creatively, let's think expansively, let's think inclusively as to ways that we can enrich this dialogue and ways to bring in more voices, more perspectives. Furthermore, let's think about the independent reflection space, which is key to this.
Lorena Germán [00:10:25]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:10:25]:
Can you build on that?
Lorena Germán [00:10:27]:
Yeah, I mean, I think what I just described in terms of their voices and getting them to reflect on their own use of the word and the general use of the word is important. You also want them to reflect on the history of this word. How is it that in 2024, we're still using this word socially? I mean, and what is the power of the word and the concept that words have power? I mean, there's so much that they can reflect on, and maybe you want to invite them to think of words that aren't, you know, as widely used as the n word, but words that hurt them nonetheless, and. And words that have really harmful effects for them. Maybe they were used by a parent or a friend or a bully of some sort, you know, and so that that individual reflection for students is so important. And sometimes, maybe, dare I say, always, I don't know, but certainly often can be more important than the actual, like, assessment because that's where the character work happens. You know, they might pass a test, but maybe their character hasn't changed. Maybe they haven't grown.
Lorena Germán [00:11:38]:
You know what I mean?
Roberto Germán [00:11:40]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:11:41]:
I think giving them space to reflect presents opportunities for us to collect data as to what they're processing, how this is impacting them, how things have impacted them in the past, how they are engaging with language.
Roberto Germán [00:12:00]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:12:00]:
All of these things are important, as is individual engagement with the teacher.
Roberto Germán [00:12:07]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:12:07]:
Yeah, we know that's necessary.
Lorena Germán [00:12:09]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Lorena Germán [00:12:10]:
I mean, just checking in and making sure that you are available, ready to engage with them, to meet with somebody, because, again, this is a heavy topic. Some kids might have questions that they don't want to ask in the large group. Some kids might have something to share about something they've experienced, you know? And so, you know, a whole group discussion presents some really good opportunities for people to process and hear different points of view. But that one on one with you or that small group with you can unearth other things that could be really valuable as well. I mean, folks know that part, right?
Lorena Germán [00:12:50]:
About small group.
Roberto Germán [00:12:52]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:12:54]:
So many perspectives, right? And we're living in a different time period with social media and music. And the way, in this particular case, we're talking about the N word, the way it's used so loosely now.
Roberto Germán [00:13:10]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:13:10]:
Like, it amazes me. I'm not going front. Like, when I'm in different places, whether I'm in my vehicle and, you know, there's other vehicles around me and they're bumping the music real high, or I'm in other spaces, sometimes sporting events, and, like, you know, they're playing all types of music, and, like, it's. It's so casual now, the use of the N word.
Lorena Germán [00:13:34]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:13:35]:
It's so casual that it, you know, it. I find it to be strange, you know, how casual we approach it as a society. You know what I'm saying? Like, I know other people are like, nah. You know, they don't think about it twice. It's just what I.
Lorena Germán [00:13:52]:
Well, for me, was weird.
Roberto Germán [00:13:54]:
I find it uncomfortable when we're driving.
Lorena Germán [00:13:56]:
Or I'm driving or something. And what you're describing happens, right? That loud music is bumping and it's all kinds of n words, and I look over, and it's like, not a Black person listening.
Roberto Germán [00:14:08]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:14:09]:
And. And within the Black community, there's different perspectives on this, too.
Lorena Germán [00:14:15]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:14:16]:
You know, like, I'm one that I. I just tend to refrain. I rather not. Yeah, I used to, you know, when I was younger and definitely, you know, when I was listening to certain music and certain type of artists and when I was making music or when I was making a certain type of music. But as I was growing, especially when I had my nephews around me and they were younger, and I used to bring them to the studio, I used to. We used to record in Framingham masks with my gamma tail guts. And then on the way home, I'd be thinking like, hmm.
Lorena Germán [00:14:54]:
Oh, yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:14:55]:
Like, because as an artist, you always want to be listening to your music, critiquing it, getting a sense of, like, you know, your hype. You just recorded it, but at the same time, you want to lend your critical ear to get a sense of what can be improved. And we be driving back from Framingham to Lawrence, and I'm like, nah, I can't play this, you know? Cause my nephew's in here, and I don't want my nephew saying some of these words that I'm saying.
Lorena Germán [00:15:26]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:15:28]:
And so that thing started to impact me and started to change my approach. So then I used to start to write music, regardless of who else was on the track and who was saying whatever my verses. I was still trying to get it off, but I was doing it without using the n word or without cussing at all, without saying. Certainly, I wanted it to convey a message that I felt like my nephews and others could digest. Like, it would be fine for me to play it in the whip on the way back.
Lorena Germán [00:16:05]:
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:16:10]:
So for educators and folks in other spaces, we understand that a lesson on the n word is not an easy thing. It's. It's comfortable for most folks, regardless of how you identify, you know, regardless of your racial and ethnic background, you know, I mean, some people might find it, you know, perfectly comfortable, but.
Lorena Germán [00:16:35]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:16:36]:
I'd say for many people and maybe most people, it's an uncomfortable lesson to engage in, especially considering, you know, the makeup of your audience.
Lorena Germán [00:16:48]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:16:49]:
And so, you know, we offer this because we want to have real conversations. We want to touch upon things that bring tension to learning spaces, and we want to support folks as much as possible. Obviously, we're giving you a taste right here, but for those who want to engage more deeply, you already know what time it is. Reach out to us at multiculturalclassroom.com. Love to dig in further with you and support you as best possible. Anything else you want to add to this before we wrap?
Lorena Germán [00:17:32]:
Yeah, I think. I think that planning goes a long way here. Planning for even what you don't expect. Right. So just having a plan b, having alternate things. But don't, you know, don't avoid this because you're scared. And this is a really important lesson and or conversation to have if you work at a predominantly White institution. There are so many kids using these.
Lorena Germán [00:18:09]:
This word and words like it because they don't understand the gravity and. Or maybe don't care, but I just think it's because they don't really understand. And so this is, you know, that's why I said at the beginning of this blog that it was irresponsible. And I stand by that, to not have these conversations, particularly when they show up in these books. So I hope this has been, you know, somewhat useful and encouraging.
Roberto Germán [00:18:33]:
Well, and you mentioned, particularly if you work in a predominantly White institution, and I get why you're saying that. I want to also add that this is an important lesson for all groups.
Roberto Germán [00:18:48]:
Right?
Lorena Germán [00:18:48]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:18:48]:
Because now I'm thinking about some of the places in which we've talked, right. Including predominantly spanish speaking schools and spanish speaking populations where kids are coming from the islands or they're coming from some of the other places, and they're just using this word.
Lorena Germán [00:19:03]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:19:04]:
And they have no. No real context, no understanding. And that is problematic, regardless of who they say it to.
Lorena Germán [00:19:15]:
Agreed.
Roberto Germán [00:19:17]:
But then they might be also using it, and they might be using it not just amongst their spanish speaking peers, but now they might be using it or directing it to somebody who identifies as Black. So there's layers to peel back there, too.
Roberto Germán [00:19:36]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:19:36]:
And again, we could go down all these different racial and ethnic groups, but I'm using that because it's the first thing that comes to mind in terms of some of the spaces in which we've taught and led schools and whatnot, in which we know that, you know, that it was a problem there, one that needs addressing.
Lorena Germán [00:19:56]:
Yep. Yep. I agree.
Roberto Germán [00:19:57]:
So this is.
Roberto Germán [00:20:00]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:20:01]:
It needs to be addressed in predominantly White schools, but it also needs to be addressed in all these other spaces with all these different makeups of kids. All of our kids need to understand the cultural context, the current context. They need to have this common language and the nature of these conversations. And when I say these now, I'm not just referring to a conversation around the n word. I'm referring to courageous conversations.
Roberto Germán [00:20:35]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:20:35]:
The nature of these courageous conversations and name the courageous thing that you're talking about, not just race, needs to be normalized.
Lorena Germán [00:20:44]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:20:45]:
You know, I know there's a big push to shut down these conversations and that there's factions of people that, you know, think it's divisive or not necessary or something. No, no, no. We need to normalize these conversations so that we're better preparing our kids to understand more deeply, to engage and think critically, and to be able to navigate a world of differences here in the United States and beyond.
Roberto Germán [00:21:24]:
As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show, and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race bias, education, and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com peace and love from your host, Roberto Germán.
