Roberto Germán [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space, we talk about education, which is inclusive of, but not limited to, what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto Germán, and Our Classroom is officially in session. Welcome back to Our Classroom, folks. Today we have the island episode, because I have Lissette Norman here with me, an author, a poet. She published the book Plátanos Go with Everything. Hey, this is an individual who's published a few books, doing some great things.
Roberto Germán [00:00:52]:
This is gonna be a bilingual episode. Mi gente. So pa' que lo sepa. I have my Licey hat on. If, you know. You know, I'm excited to have Lissette with me. I've been trying to get her on for a while, and things just kept coming up that disrupted both of our schedules. But finally, we're able to connect and get into her beautiful book.
Roberto Germán [00:01:19]:
Plátanos Go with Everything. Listen, I'm just gonna go ahead and let y'all know I have a bias, all right? I'm acknowledging that, you know, that's part of the work that we do, a multicultural classroom. Right. So I am acknowledging my bias towards this author, towards the content, because it speaks to my Dominican roots, the island of Dominican Republic, where my parents immigrated from the heritage that I grew up with. And so this, to me, this book, to me, represents so much about what I love as it relates to Dominican culture. You did a fabulous job. Sara Palacios, with the illustration, did a fabulous job. So thank you for being here and taking the time to share with me not just about your book, but about the culture that.
Roberto Germán [00:02:12]:
That we share.
Lissette Norman [00:02:14]:
Right, right. And thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here. I'm glad we finally worked it out and. And we could chat a little bit about, you know, Dominican culture and my books.
Roberto Germán [00:02:24]:
Yes, yes, absolutely. So here's a question that I didn't draft, but I was thinking about this before we got on. Plátanos Go with Everything. Tell me what they go with today.
Lissette Norman [00:02:38]:
Oh, man. You can. You can do well, actually, your.
Roberto Germán [00:02:43]:
No, no. Lissette, stop it. Stop it. Don't tell me what you could do. Tell me what it goes with today. Hoy mismo. Hoy mismo. Okay, if you're gonna sit down and eat a meal, you tell me what the plátanos are going with.
Lissette Norman [00:02:58]:
Con huevo frito y queso frito. Definitely. I don't eat meat, so. But people eat salchichon or what else. You eat meat.
Roberto Germán [00:03:08]:
I do.
Lissette Norman [00:03:09]:
Okay. So what do you.
Roberto Germán [00:03:09]:
I don't eat. I don't eat red meat. I don't eat beef. Red meat. But pollo, shrimp in the evenings, I.
Lissette Norman [00:03:20]:
Like it with shrimp.
Roberto Germán [00:03:21]:
I eat mariscos. Yes.
Lissette Norman [00:03:24]:
So, yeah, so you come and you can do. You can eat so many things with it.
Roberto Germán [00:03:27]:
So I just finished eating cassava.
Lissette Norman [00:03:31]:
Okay.
Roberto Germán [00:03:32]:
You know, maybe it was I needed to prep myself for this episode. I'm like, yeah, you know, casave also speaks to my heart.
Lissette Norman [00:03:44]:
Yeah, yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:03:45]:
But. But let's. Let's get into your book. Let's get into your book. And the title of your book. As I mentioned, Plátanos Go with Everything. And an observation that I have just off ripped with the title. Right.
Roberto Germán [00:03:59]:
Because word choice is important for authors, and I'm wondering, why did you choose to leave the word platanos instead of plantains for the english version of your book? Because there's also a spanish version of your book, right?
Lissette Norman [00:04:21]:
Yes, yes. So, yeah, so I. First of all, I never say plantains. Like, it doesn't even sound right coming out of my mouth. I only say plátanos ever. Like, I don't think I've ever referred to them that way. So I was like, it has to be plátanos. And the other thing was that, you know, I was very intentional with this book all the way from, you know, every aspect of the book, from the way the main characters were depicted, like the decor in the home, and all the way through to the title of the book.
Lissette Norman [00:04:54]:
You know, this book, I wrote it for, you know, our kids, for Latinx kids, for Dominican kids, especially Afro Dominican kids. So I wanted to. I wanted to just honor that by also keeping platanos in the title, you know? So I don't think we have enough books with. Especially with Afro Latino kids. Afro Latinos.
Roberto Germán [00:05:19]:
Let's build on that. Let's build on that. Because you say especially Afro Dominican kids. Especially Afro Latino kids. What is it? What about that? Why.
Lissette Norman [00:05:30]:
Black Dominicans? You know, that's to be flat out Black Dominicans. I wanted to see them. You don't see a lot of covers with Black Latino children on the COVID so that was very important. And I do that for all of my books. In my next book, Abuela's library also has the little boy on the COVID is a Black Dominican kid. And when I was working on that book, there were more children at the end of that book. Towards the end, you'll see the kids in the neighborhood. And I told my only request was that the main characters had to be Afro Dominican.
Lissette Norman [00:06:09]:
And then the illustrator, she was free to do whatever with the rest of the kids in the neighborhood. So that's a must for me. That's important to me. We don't see it enough, and I'm on a mission to change that.
Roberto Germán [00:06:22]:
That's beautiful. Thank you for doing that. I definitely feel seen through the characterization in your books.
Lissette Norman [00:06:30]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:06:31]:
Another observation that I noted was that of the poetic papi, particularly the part that mentions him reciting poems to mommy from outside the building. Why was this important to you to portray Papi in this way? And also the relationship between Papi and mommy? And this is also coming from a poet and father in husband.
Lissette Norman [00:06:58]:
Okay. Right. So. So before I get into that, I'll say with my first book, my feet are laughing. The father and the mother were divorced in that book. Right. And I. But I.
Lissette Norman [00:07:11]:
The father was very involved and engaged with the main character and her little sister. He would come over for dinner, and the mother would even, like, still make his favorite dessert when he came over. Right. So I wanted to show that. And the. And I wanted to do that because that's what it was. That was my reality as a kid. You know, my parents were divorced, but my father was still around.
Lissette Norman [00:07:36]:
He was. I didn't have to worry, like, Papi's never coming back. You know, it was. He was always around. He was always there. And even my mother remarried, and my father remarried, and my father would come with his wife for dinner, and we would all have dinner together. So you don't think about that? I don't know that I thought about it at the time, but I look back now, and that was so meaningful and helpful emotionally, psychologically for me. And then one of the actual trade magazines for books, for picture books, they wrote that that particular part of the book defied the stereotypical broken home, you know? So I was like, okay, you know, so with this book, with the blood on a book, I wanted to show another side of, you know, where the parents are together.
Lissette Norman [00:08:27]:
I wanted to show a loving side, a tender moment, a sweet moment where he's reciting poetry to her. And because, you know, that's a lived experience that we all have, too. So I wanted to. It was important to me to show that as well. The father also very engaged, very close to even Yesenia. Like, I love the scene where they're dancing together and she goes, you know, she loses her spelling bee, and so she's upset during the day, but her father dancing with her father made her forget that. So I just wanted to include sweet moments that, you know, that we all experience, you know, in this book.
Roberto Germán [00:09:09]:
Yeah. And I think it's important that you did that and that we, as authors, continue to seek moments in which we can portray with authenticity our people, our families, disrupt stereotypes and narratives that are out there. And so I really. I saw that. I noticed it. It spoke to me, and I'm glad that you did that. It's certainly an important part of the book, at least for me. I don't know how much feedback you received about that relationship between Papi and mommy, and certainly the characterization of Papi, but I definitely notice it, and I'm hopeful that the young readers also take note.
Lissette Norman [00:09:59]:
Yeah, they. They usually love when I read that part of the book, you know? And I wanted to show in every book, even in my feet are laughing. The little girl aspires to be a poet when she grows up. And in this book, the father's a poet, because I want to make that, you know, a profession, like a serious profession, like, yes, the father is a poet. He makes a living as a poet, as a writer. So, you know, that was important to include that.
Roberto Germán [00:10:24]:
Beautiful, beautiful. So we know Republica Dominicana. Nosotros producimos los mejores peloteros Best baseball players come from the Dominican Republic, all right? We all know that. People, this ain't. This is not even my bias. This is just a fact.
Lissette Norman [00:10:40]:
It's facts.
Roberto Germán [00:10:42]:
And so I'm wondering why you chose to highlight these three particular players in your book. Pedro Martinez, my favorite pitcher of all time. Robinson Cano. Robin, Robinson Cano.. And Juan Soto. Why? Why don't. Because there's so many players.
Roberto Germán [00:11:05]:
I know, right?
Lissette Norman [00:11:06]:
I was trying to.
Roberto Germán [00:11:07]:
I'm gonna be real with you. I'm like, yo, how. How she ain't gonna select David Ortiz Big Papi. Get it? Haina. I mean, Papi. So, you know, I'm like, yo, I know big Papi with such a big personality, and everybody loves him, but, I mean, these three great ones. But why? Why those three?
Lissette Norman [00:11:28]:
Okay, well, I mean, Pedro Martinez, he's the OG, so he had to go. That's not even a question. Right?
Roberto Germán [00:11:34]:
No doubt.
Lissette Norman [00:11:35]:
Then Juan Soto, he's, like, the hot player now that young kids know, right? So I want. And, yeah, they know Papi, but they know Juan Soto.
Roberto Germán [00:11:44]:
That's good.
Lissette Norman [00:11:44]:
You know, so they, you know, because, after all, young kids are reading this, you know, young readers, so they know Juan Soto. They know exactly who he is. So he had to go in, and, I mean, he's amazing. And then Robinson Cano, he was, like, the age. The age in between Pedro and Juan. So I don't know. I just wanted him. He's popular also.
Lissette Norman [00:12:10]:
Great player. And I think that a lot of people would know who he is, too. And, I mean, I could have introduced readers to a new player or a play that's maybe not known, but I don't know. I certainly picked Pedro and Juan Soto first. And then it was just like, who can I pick? That's like middle, you know, in the middle, in between that age, like different age groups that, you know, readers, maybe children that are a little older might know. So we'll see.
Roberto Germán [00:12:40]:
That's good. I'm glad I asked the question because it's good to hear, like, the strategy behind what goes into the book. Right. Every detail counts.
Lissette Norman [00:12:50]:
Right. Right.
Roberto Germán [00:12:52]:
And staying along those lines with. With every detail and staying along the lines with Dominican culture, we know that music is an integral part of our culture. And so why, with the song selection from Toño Rosario, why that's out of all the so many songs, right. You could have gone with Juan.
Lissette Norman [00:13:16]:
I know.
Roberto Germán [00:13:17]:
Romeo Santo, Anthony Santo El Mayimbe. Why Toño Rosario?
Lissette Norman [00:13:29]:
Well, I mean, I agree. Music has a magical way of bringing us back home no matter where we are. Right. And so again, keeping in mind that these are young kids, what better song to pick than Kulikitaka? Because all the kids know that, like, when I go to the schools, you know, we do the, I do like a call and response. So I'll say Kulikitakati with the mic and then I put it to the audience and they call back and sing the rest of the song, you know, and they love that. They go crazy when that happens. And even at the end of the reading, we play the song and I invite kids to dance with me or to dance and play. So to come in the aisles and dance and they all want to dance.
Lissette Norman [00:14:17]:
It's a, it's like a fun, catchy song, too, for kids. They go crazy when it comes on. And it's definitely so representative of Dominican culture. So that song had to be the one that I chose.
Roberto Germán [00:14:30]:
Yeah, that song has definitely lasted the test of time.
Lissette Norman [00:14:34]:
It's a classic, too.
Roberto Germán [00:14:35]:
So it's a classic. It's been out for a minute. So shout out to Toño Rosario.
Lissette Norman [00:14:41]:
Yes.
Roberto Germán [00:14:43]:
In today's literary world, how do you see Plátanos Go with Everything contributing to the broader conversation about cultural representation in children's literature? And what impact do you hope it will have on young readers from diverse backgrounds?
Lissette Norman [00:15:00]:
Well, just to, you know, back up a little bit before I answer that, I'll say that, you know, I didn't, I wasn't an early reader, like, the first book I found, I was early teens. My brother was reading Perry Thomas' down these main streets, and he left it on the table, you know, a bit raw for a young kid. But I was so fascinated by the fact that it was an Afro Puerto Rican family and, or the main character. And I was like, wow, like, we're in books. Like, that was, it was really transformational for me. And I was like, wow, we're really in books. Because I didn't think that we were important enough to be in books. And so, you know, I was one of those kids that was definitely, I had three older brothers, and in our neighborhood in the heights, there were, you know, a lot of kids outside, and we were out playing street games, and I, you know, it was a lot of that.
Lissette Norman [00:15:58]:
So I didn't read a lot as a kid. I didn't read much, actually. And, but I felt that I missed out, you know, as soon as I figured that out, I was like, wow. Like, and then certainly as I got older, I was like, wow. I felt like I, I missed out on books. I could have used, you know, books as a way to, you know, somewhere to go, you know, somewhere to explore, you know, use my imagination, but I didn't, I didn't have, I missed out on that. And so it was important to me to do something about that. You know, like I said, it's my mission to change that because there is a huge absence.
Lissette Norman [00:16:36]:
And so I wanted to write books so that kids now do not have to go through that same thing. And I'm hoping, you know, with my small contributions, you know, hopefully they can increase, you know, the Latinx, certainly the Afro Latinx representation in children's literature, you know, that's my goal. That's my hope. I'm going to keep doing it. You know, don't ask me to write about anything. I mean, I'll write on different topics, and I will certainly do collaborations because I also do collaborations with other people. But when it comes to my personal books, cultural stories, I want to include Afro Dominicans. You heard that folks were right about them.
Lissette Norman [00:17:21]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:17:21]:
To set the debt. So hopefully you don't have to go through that, right? Oh, that's great. Well, it's important that you continue to write and that you stay true to your mission, because our youngsters, regardless of how they identify culturally, they need to engage with different stories. They need to be exposed to different cultures. Obviously, one great way to expose them to different cultures and different stories is through books. And certainly, you know, this beautiful book right here offers. Offers young people a lot, including. Including right here, folks.
Roberto Germán [00:18:10]:
You got a whole breakdown. Ingredients and steps. All right, four steps. Four steps. A four step recipe to make mangú de platano. All right. Mashed plantain, folks. Try it.
Roberto Germán [00:18:26]:
Open up your minds. You know, I love when authors do this, when they offer. If it's a book that is encompassing food and culture or whatnot, that they offer a recipe that the reader and families can explore together. Certainly, you know, for us, like, we're familiar with this, but I love the idea of people that are not Dominican, not from our culture, reading this, and hopefully being inspired to try this recipe. And, you know, maybe they like it, maybe not. I understand that this could be somewhat of an acquired taste, even though I think it's, like, the greatest food on earth.
Lissette Norman [00:19:07]:
I haven't heard anybody who had an issue. You know, a lot of people send me videos of them making. Yeah, with making mangú with their kids. So that's. I always love to get those videos. Or they, you know, they'll tag me in videos, they'll send me pictures. It's really wonderful. Like, it's been well received.
Lissette Norman [00:19:26]:
I mean, people are hungry for this stuff. You know, it was important to me, like, to keep the book as authentic as possible. One, I didn't want to lose my Dominican cardinal. Right. And then just so, you know, just expose people that are not aware of our culture. Somebody was saying, however, that because there was a couple of other Platano books, so they were saying that, you know, that platanos became hard to find or the price on platanos going up. So I was like, oh, man, yesterday's.
Roberto Germán [00:20:00]:
Price ain't today's price, right, exactly.
Lissette Norman [00:20:04]:
So. So, yeah, so, um. But, yeah, no, it's. It's been so well received, and I'm happy, you know, the kids, I mean, when I go, when I do school visits, the kids light up. When they know, like, I'm Dominican, they'll say right away, they'll, like, raise their hand, like, I'm Dominican, too, you know, so that's always, you know, I'm always happy to see that, you know, they feel, like, feel like, important. See, like, yeah, me and my people, so.
Roberto Germán [00:20:29]:
And they feel like they're feeling affirmed.
Lissette Norman [00:20:32]:
Right, exactly.
Roberto Germán [00:20:33]:
And that's what we want. We want all our kids to feel affirmed in a variety of ways. And so this book is certainly doing that. All right, so, you know, thinking about. Thinking about the fact that Plátanos Go with Everything. Let's put platanos on the lunch menu. If you had an opportunity to have lunch with anybody that are alive. Who would it be and why? I already know y'all gonna eat plátanos, but who would you want to sit down and eat plátanos with? And why?
Lissette Norman [00:21:06]:
Well, you know, I could easily say, you know, something like my literary mother, you know, Audre Lorde, right? And I know she gets down with. She would have gotten down. She got down with platinum shore, being from the Caribbean. But in this case, I would say for two reasons. I would say my mom, because she did not live long enough to see me publish any of my books, and I would love her platanos. I love the way she made them. So I would love her, you know, just to have her cooking one more time, and then just to share the book with her, you know, just to share all the books. But this one in particular, like, you know, her spirit was all throughout this book.
Lissette Norman [00:21:49]:
I dedicated this book, although I dedicated my first one as well, but this one especially included a lot of her. Like, the stories of the little girl cooking in the kitchen. You know, that was me. You know, I was in the kitchen cooking, you know, food with my mother. And I said this before, my mother was an incredible storyteller, so she would tell me stories as she cooked, and I would listen more than I helped her. So. Yeah, so at those moments, um, I would have loved to see her and say, look, mommy, you know, like these. This is what we used to do.
Lissette Norman [00:22:27]:
And. And all the dancing. Like, my mother loved to play music, so there was always music.
Roberto Germán [00:22:33]:
Every Friday, there was a. There was a party in your spot in your house. Every.
Lissette Norman [00:22:37]:
Yeah, nothing was planned. It was like Friday, Saturday nights, there was always a party. Even Sundays. You know, it was just like if four more gather, like, as the party jumps off, and then the neighbor comes by and wants to come in, and my mother always had a bunch of food. She always cooked a bunch of food.
Roberto Germán [00:22:53]:
So that was her way of welcoming folks as well.
Lissette Norman [00:22:59]:
Exactly. So then you just move furniture aside and start dancing, and that's just the way it was. So those are moments in the book and parts of the book that I would have loved for her to see, so she would be the one. So it's a twofer, because I get to share that special, you know, moment with her and then also have some of her food, which I miss. So.
Roberto Germán [00:23:21]:
Yeah, that's great. That's great. Well, what's. What's your message of encouragement to the audience?
Lissette Norman [00:23:29]:
Message of encouragement? I mean, if we're talking, anybody that would like to even do picture books, for example, a lot of reading. I mean, that's what writers typically say, right? You got to read. I would encourage you because picture books are quick. You can read them quickly. So, I mean, you should at least read before you try to write a picture book, 50 to 100 picture books, which, you know, you don't have to do them all at once, but you should read them for all the ways, all the different styles, the language, because I think people get the language wrong a lot. They try to dumb it down or they use language that's not appropriate or, you know, and you can't underestimate, you know, children's intelligence. They're sharp, right? So. So, you know, for language, they can see, you know, what language is used.
Lissette Norman [00:24:24]:
And then again, all the different styles. If you want to do, like, lyrical or, you know, beginning, middle and end, or if you want to tell the story in poems, like my first book, my Feet Are Laughing, was written with 16 different poems. So I told a story with 16 different poems. So you can do something like that. So you learn a lot by reading them first and then, you know, be as authentic and real as possible. Try to, you know, be engaging with, with your, with your book. You have to be fun. If you're not having fun reading it, the children are not going to have fun either.
Lissette Norman [00:25:02]:
So you have to read it out loud. Test it on kids that, you know, I would send my work to my nieces and nephews and they were. And, you know, kids are honest. They will tell you.
Roberto Germán [00:25:12]:
That's right.
Lissette Norman [00:25:12]:
So. So, yeah, so that's. That's what I would recommend. That's a good place to start. And then just write, write, rewrite. And. And then, you know, share with other people for feedback, people that you trust.
Roberto Germán [00:25:28]:
Inspiring writers. I hope you're taking notes. That's giving you some gems right there and certainly some motivation to get you going. And we need more people to write their stories.
Lissette Norman [00:25:42]:
Yes.
Roberto Germán [00:25:43]:
Shift narratives to. We need to amplify authentic voices. And we have to bring out a diversity of perspectives, as this book does for those that are interested. And getting a copy of platinums go with everything. And also interested in connecting with you. If they want to learn more about you, they want to follow you, they want to explore your other works. What's the best way for them to go about that? Where do you want to direct them to?
Lissette Norman [00:26:17]:
There's two ways to reach me. I have my website, www.lisettenorman.com lissette, and then on IG on Instagram. I am Plátanos Go with Everything you can find me there. And on my website, if you want to order books, I have listed a lot of the independent bookstores support, like Dominican Writers Association.
Roberto Germán [00:26:48]:
Shout out to Angie.
Lissette Norman [00:26:49]:
Yeah, shout out to Angie and the whole DWA family. And then, and then, or your local independent bookstore is usually what I, that's what I would suggest. So. And they're linked in my, in my website. And I also have links in on my IG page.
Roberto Germán [00:27:10]:
And then you also, based on what you said earlier, it sounds like you do author visits. So for schools and other organizations that are interested, reach out to Lissette, lisettenorman.com. if you're interested in the author, visit. If you want to get your kids dancing. Toño Rosario. Right. If you want them to feel affirmed, if you want to expose them to new culture. To Dominican culture.
Roberto Germán [00:27:39]:
Hit up Lissette. Hit up Lissette. Sounds like she has a great offer for you.
Lissette Norman [00:27:45]:
Yeah. Thank you so much for the, for that plug. I appreciate it. Yes, I'm available for school visits. I travel. I will be between New York and Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh. So in those areas, you know, that works. And again, I mean, I'm open to travel.
Roberto Germán [00:28:02]:
So, hey, this is a great time. This is a great time. School year's popping off. All right. Line up the right authors right now, and lisa should be one of them. Thank you for your time, Lissette. Thank you for this beautiful book that my family loves. And we actually just did a giveaway to a local family here in Tampa, Florida.
Roberto Germán [00:28:27]:
Nice and so well, yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. We want to make sure that we stay committed to amplifying authors such as yourself who are taking the time and pouring of themselves to create great works. And when I read this book, every single word, every single page, paying attention to the details. As a plátano lover and as a lover of Dominican culture, I will say I am extremely proud of this work.
Lissette Norman [00:29:04]:
That means a lot to me. That really means a lot to me. I appreciate it. And I want to, and I want to shout out, I want to shout you and Lorena out for all the good work you do in education. And congratulations on the book.
Roberto Germán [00:29:18]:
Thank you.
Lissette Norman [00:29:18]:
The anti racist teacher.
Roberto Germán [00:29:20]:
Thank you.
Lissette Norman [00:29:23]:
I was so excited for her when it came out. So congratulations to her.
Roberto Germán [00:29:28]:
Thank you to both of you. No, we appreciate it. And certainly we are going to maintain that spirit of collaboration. So whatever we could do to support you, please reach out and, yeah, keep pushing forward, looking, looking forward to your next book.
Lissette Norman [00:29:43]:
Okay. Thank you so much for having me. This is wonderful.
Roberto Germán [00:29:46]:
All right. Thank you. As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show, and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race, bias, education, and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com. peace and love from your host, Roberto Germán.
