Roberto Germán [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space we talk about education which is inclusive of but not limited to what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto Germán, and Our Classroom is officially in session.
Wade Kelly [00:00:27]:
My name is Wade Kelly. I'm the Assistant Director of Content Development at Swift Education Center. Let's get started. Today is a great day because we're sitting down with Lorena Germán. Ms. Germán is the co founder and academic director of Multicultural Classroom and the author of Textured A Framework for Culturally Sustaining Practices. She is an immigrant from Dominican Republic who was raised in the U.S. lorena has been in the field of education working in various settings since 2001.
Wade Kelly [00:00:59]:
Lorena has held educational leadership positions at the department level, school wide level, and in larger district level, from designing curriculum to strategizing for improvement. She is the chair of the National Council of English Teachers Committee Against Racism and Bias in the Teaching of English and she's a co founder of Disrupt Texts and she's also the director of Pedagogy at Educolor. Lorena Germán, Welcome.
Lorena Germán [00:01:28]:
Hey, thanks for having me. Excited to get into our conversation?
Wade Kelly [00:01:34]:
Yeah, we are super, super excited to have you here. I am a fan, so I'm not going to fanboy too much. We're going to go ahead and talk and just be normal. But just know inside, on the inside, I'm fanboying.
Lorena Germán [00:01:49]:
That's so funn.
Wade Kelly [00:01:51]:
Okay, so yeah, let's just get into it. So what you and your partner Roberto do takes on many forms. So you do writing, coaching, teaching, speaking, making podcasts, consulting, professional development, all kinds of things. But can you share with us a little bit more about your why? So how did your personal journey inform your decision to focus on transforming classrooms toward equity and justice?
Lorena Germán [00:02:20]:
Yeah, that's a good question. And you know, it's funny because like, obviously I know some of these questions, but still hearing them spoken out loud is just. It's just different all over again. But this is the work that we do is very much in response to our own journeys as well as an attempt to heal even what we've experienced in our own journeys. I'll speak for myself versus like telling both of our stories. But for me, education was always something that I appreciated. My parents and I were immigrants, but they both had to stop their education early. And so when we came to the United States from the beginning, if there was anything we were gonna do in this country, it was going to be go to college and do well.
Lorena Germán [00:03:14]:
And my family was always very Supportive of anything that had to do with school education, learning, classroom homework, reading, writing. And so I had that big support at home, but that was not present at school. Teachers did not see that that was an interest, that I was already reading and writing at home, that I had a notebook full of stories, that I had a mini library in my bedroom. Right. Like, that was not. I was seen through this lens of a stereotype. I was just one of the other kids in that class. And, you know, going through school, I can remember all the way back to, like, middle school and high school.
Lorena Germán [00:03:54]:
As I get older, I feel like my. My capacity for memory beyond that same. Right. And so anyway, you know, I. I never read a book where any character looked. Sounded like was from a place like me, be that Dominican Republic or a city like Lawrence, which is predominantly immigrants. And I didn't have, you know, someone who said, look at this book written by someone like you or just not a white person, that you can actually learn from, that we can study here in Our Classroom until I got to graduate school. Graduate school.
Wade Kelly [00:04:36]:
That's unbelievable.
Lorena Germán [00:04:39]:
And. Well, let me take that. Let me go back my senior year, second semester of college, there was a course where the teacher introduced. It wasn't a book. We just watched a documentary. So that's why I kind of don't count it.
Wade Kelly [00:04:53]:
But fine, right?
Lorena Germán [00:04:55]:
This conversation. And he was. He was really on the ground, like, he was an activist, this white man. And he was like, you know, I want y' all to see this. This has been banned here. And I was like, banned? What do you mean? We watched it, and I was just, like, really impacted. But all of that is to say that that lack of representation, that lack of affirmation of curriculum, that lack of exposure to topics other than what are typically covered in our schools, which means including our voices and our problems and our perspectives was part of the impetus of how I even got into any of this work. One of the things that I've said often in interviews and in conversations is that I became a teacher to be the teacher I never had.
Lorena Germán [00:05:38]:
And that definitely is a burden and an opportunity. It's really heavy, and it feels like a lot of responsibility. And at the same time, for me, this is not a call to anyone else or judgment on anyone else. But for me, it also feels like I don't have another option. Right. Like, I love education. I love teaching and learning. I love the craft of teaching.
Lorena Germán [00:06:02]:
I love being a student myself. And so if I loved plumbing, then that's what it would be. But I don't Right. If I loved, I don't know, driving, then that's what I would do. But this is it. And so the way that I do this is informed by what I didn't have, what I believe that I should have had, and what I want other people to have, you know?
Wade Kelly [00:06:24]:
Yeah.
Wade Kelly [00:06:25]:
No, that's beautiful. I mean, it's. I mean, I understand this. The feeling of it's kind of on one side, a little bit of a burden, but on the other side, you still have that, like, fourth grade Lorena, in your head, you know, like, you remember what it felt like to have that void and the challenges that sent ripples through your life, you know, because of not having those things. And so it's important enough that you're like, let me go ahead and do this.
Lorena Germán [00:06:52]:
Right?
Wade Kelly [00:06:53]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Lorena Germán [00:06:55]:
Yeah, for sure.
Wade Kelly [00:06:57]:
So culturally sustaining pedagogy is one of the primary methodologies that has influenced your strategy for change in education. Can you speak just for a moment on what CSP is, the importance of it in your work, and just feel free to talk about any strategies that you've used for its implementation as well.
Lorena Germán [00:07:17]:
Yeah. A lot of people have heard of culturally relevant teaching, which is crt, and people have heard of culturally responsive pedagogy, and both of those are frameworks. They are kind of like, here's a theory of how to do a thing. And they're both valid and wonderful and written by separate people. I want to preface that a lot of people conflate them as one. They're not. They're separate things. Related, for sure, but separate anyway.
Lorena Germán [00:07:48]:
Then comes along Dr. Django Paris in about 2011ish and conceptualizes culturally sustaining pedagogy, which is a way to say, this work has been foundational. CRT and CRP have been foundational. We have to be relevant, we have to be responsive to. And we also have to move beyond that and be sustaining. Right. We have so many ways of speaking, of engaging, of practicing literacy, of just being that schools have sought to get rid of, to vilify, to erase. And so what they're saying is we have to go beyond.
Lorena Germán [00:08:28]:
You know, they call it a loving critique. We have to go beyond simply wanting to respond to what's happening or relate to kids and really go deeper into sustaining what our schooling has attempted to erase and in some places, successfully done so.
Wade Kelly [00:08:47]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:08:49]:
And so while culturally relevant teaching and culturally responsive teaching are theories and frameworks, culturally sustaining pedagogy is a stance. It is a why. And that's why I think teachers often Find it hard to quote, unquote, implement. It doesn't come with four steps, it doesn't come with a checklist. It is the, you know, one of the questions that Dr. Paris pushes all of us to think of is who walks in with you when you walk into a room? Like, who walks in with you? And that doesn't mean who physically is walking in with you, right? But like, not only what education, but who are those professors that taught you these things? Who are your academic elders? Who are your, your actual elders in your life? Like, who are your ancestors? All of that is walking in with you and simultaneously with students. And what can we do in these practices so that we go Beyond A squared + B squared equals C squared into like you're a math mathematician and what does that now mean in your life? How are you going to use that for our improvement and to participate in this democracy? And so CSP is abstract in that way, right. That we would wish that it was a checklist.
Lorena Germán [00:10:08]:
But what we've seen is, is that with the other two theories, the minute that you've put out somewhat of a framework, somewhat of a how to, it's easily co opted and folks want that checklist. And then it's watered to really cool handshakes at the door. And now you're a culturally relevant teacher. And I think the door handshakes are fun. They're not bad, right? That does not make you a culturally relevant teacher at all. Even having dance breaks to the latest Drake song, that is not a culturally relevant teacher. So all of that is to kind of contextualize what CSP is, but also why, why we need it and why we have to go deeper. And so when I learned about CSP, it was when Dr.
Lorena Germán [00:10:54]:
Paris was conceptualizing it. And I got to be there when he was trying to think about like, what is this thing that I'm describing and naming it and kind of articulating all that it is in a classroom. And so I was able to say, oh, that makes a lot of sense and go and try things and then figure out like, what does this look like in my practice? And that's how we get to texture teaching, and that's how we get to everything that I do today. It's essentially me reflecting and saying, this is how I was embodying and practicing this culturally sustaining approach. And so I talk about those strategies, specifically what that looks like. But there's so many ways, there's so many iterations of this. This is just my, my framework, my way of saying CSP has looked like this for me. And I did that through Texture Teaching by talking about a teaching practice that has kind of like four anchors.
Lorena Germán [00:11:50]:
Being student driven and community centered, being flexible, being interdisciplinary, and ensuring that teaching and learning are experiential. And so that's kind of the gist.
Wade Kelly [00:12:03]:
Yeah, yeah.
Wade Kelly [00:12:04]:
I mean, you were able to sink your teeth into it at a very important moment in your own career where you're able to turn it into something that was meaningful, as you said, embody it. You were able to sort of, like, understand it on your own terms. And I find that sometimes when I'm having these conversations with editor editors, these conversations with educators, that there is a little bit of frustration with. Which side are we coming down on? Are we coming down on the side where we have a list of things that we can check off, which is what they're predominantly looking for because they feel like they're already overworked in a lot of ways and they don't have the capacity to. Or then you have the other side where they love that. Essentially, what we're saying is, be creative. Let it be emergent. Try to get some way to involve who you already are and what you're already doing, and then make the adjustments, you know, around this framework.
Wade Kelly [00:13:03]:
Like, I understand how sometimes it can be a little bit frustrating to know which one you're.
Lorena Germán [00:13:09]:
You know, and I get that. I really do understand, which is why I ended up with a framework.
Wade Kelly [00:13:17]:
Right, right, right.
Lorena Germán [00:13:18]:
But that's not where I began.
Wade Kelly [00:13:20]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:13:20]:
It wasn't like I got the checklist that's. That means I am a culturally sustaining educator. It's like, no, no, no. This is why I'm here. This is why I'm doing this. These are the choices that I've made. This is my purpose in here. And that looks like this.
Lorena Germán [00:13:34]:
Right. It's kind of a different starting point. And the other thing I'll add real quick, Wade, is that I began doing CSP in what, for me was the M.O. to this day has been the most restrictive and oppressive educational environment.
Wade Kelly [00:13:49]:
Oh, that's interesting.
Lorena Germán [00:13:51]:
I was told every book I was to teach the order in which, what the objectives were, what the quizzes were, you know, so I had to find ways there to say, how on God's green earth am I going to do this thing with this group of kids that no one has thought about because all they're thinking about is this material. They're not thinking about them.
Wade Kelly [00:14:14]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:14:15]:
You know, and so I share that often because I think people, you know, not. Not everybody who does the type of work that I do, remembers what it's like to be in the classroom or has been in a classroom for a long time. And I always want to communicate. Like, I have been right there. I'm not there right now. I hope to be back there. But I. But I know what that is.
Lorena Germán [00:14:37]:
And I have been again, in the most repressive cond. Where I had to sneak things into my practice and my approach, you know?
Wade Kelly [00:14:46]:
Yeah, yeah.
Wade Kelly [00:14:47]:
That reminds me of that book, Fugitive Pedagogy. I don't know if you've read that yet.
Lorena Germán [00:14:52]:
I haven't yet, but I got it. Yeah.
Wade Kelly [00:14:54]:
Yeah, that's what that reminds me of. That sort of sneaking. So, you know, sometimes there's a little bit of, like, you know, you gotta fly under the radar a little bit if you want to do the most good.
Lorena Germán [00:15:06]:
Yeah.
Wade Kelly [00:15:07]:
And that's a. Like what you described. That's a heavy lift. I'm just thinking about this, and I'm like, I know that we can't go into all the way into the weeds about that moment in your life and where you went with that, but could you land on, like, maybe what was like, the first when you said to yourself, I got to do this. There's no way around this. I got to do this. I got to make this my own. And when you sat down with that understanding, what was the first thing that you did?
Wade Kelly [00:15:36]:
Do you remember?
Lorena Germán [00:15:37]:
Yeah, nobody's asked me that. And I just got a picture in my mind of that. I don't know that it was a moment, but it was a shift in my practice as an educator of color. There are so many things that we walk in with our own baggage, our own experiences and our own reasons and our own hesitations and our own whatever. And for me, it was really difficult to, quote, unquote, be myself, because this was always a place where I couldn't be myself. And so when I became a teacher, it was like, oh, I've got to be strict and hard and cold and. Right. Like, I.
Lorena Germán [00:16:20]:
I was like, I have to put on this facade. Right. My. Correct. I don't know what this is, but that's it.
Wade Kelly [00:16:27]:
Yeah, that's the thing.
Lorena Germán [00:16:28]:
I got to put this thing on.
Wade Kelly [00:16:30]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:16:30]:
And that year I walked in and I said, I'm not going to put it on. Let's see how this goes. I have to shift this power dynamic. It cannot be my show. This isn't my classroom. Is this Our Classroom? What does that mean?
Wade Kelly [00:16:48]:
Yeah.
Lorena Germán [00:16:49]:
And that was the beginning of me doing some of the Hardest work. Because I'm also. When I became a teacher, I was young. Kind of what I mean is closer in age to them than some of my colleagues.
Wade Kelly [00:17:04]:
Yes.
Lorena Germán [00:17:04]:
And I was like, man, y' all gonna respect me no matter what. Right? For me.
Wade Kelly [00:17:10]:
Right, right, right.
Lorena Germán [00:17:10]:
And I was like, they can't know my age. Like, they can't know how young I am. And it was also my own, like, imposter syndrome stuff.
Wade Kelly [00:17:17]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:17:17]:
Like, I've gotta fake it till I make it here. So it was a combination of a lot of those things. And. And for me, the dynamics in all of my classrooms changed. The engagement increased with all of my students when I decided to walk in and be a little bit more real, a little bit more myself.
Wade Kelly [00:17:35]:
Yeah, yeah.
Wade Kelly [00:17:36]:
It's like they. Sometimes I feel like kiddos have, like, a sixth sense for authenticity. Their little antennas are just going.
Lorena Germán [00:17:44]:
And they just like, nope, I see it. I see right through you. Right. And the power dynamics shifted, and then they were themselves.
Wade Kelly [00:17:53]:
And I was able to do some.
Lorena Germán [00:17:54]:
Real work with them.
Wade Kelly [00:17:55]:
Yeah, you were able to connect.
Wade Kelly [00:17:57]:
Yeah.
Wade Kelly [00:17:58]:
What did you say? You said, is it my classroom or is it Our Classroom? That is a powerful question. That's really. What does it mean if it's Our Classroom? What does that actually mean? That's really good.
Lorena Germán [00:18:10]:
That's why kids, you know, would. Up to that point, they'd be like, oh, I didn't do your homework. And that was always weird to me because I'm like, I get it, but it's not my homework. It's your homework. Like, how did we get here? Right.
Wade Kelly [00:18:22]:
Yeah.
Lorena Germán [00:18:23]:
Or, you know, I didn't do your work. And I'm like, well, it's your work.
Wade Kelly [00:18:27]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:18:28]:
You know, and then it was. It's just so transactional. Right. Like, your work, my grade.
Wade Kelly [00:18:33]:
Right, right.
Lorena Germán [00:18:34]:
And that's true. They're right. That is how it works. You turn a thing in, it's a transaction. It's an exchange. And I give you a grade versus you learn and demonstrate your learning and earn a particular. Whatever we want to call it, you know, And I simply am here to facilitate this experience. That's a different setup.
Lorena Germán [00:18:56]:
So, yeah, that was a shift for me. Came directly from csp.
Wade Kelly [00:19:00]:
Nice. Nice. Thank you for that. So I have another question here about educators. Educators. What's that?
Lorena Germán [00:19:09]:
I said my fave.
Wade Kelly [00:19:11]:
Yeah.
Lorena Germán [00:19:11]:
People go on.
Wade Kelly [00:19:14]:
So educators have been stretched then for decades. We all know that. So now in the post pandemic world, the same historical pressures occur that we're well aware of, but now we have this Compounding effect of all kinds of other things like social, political, climate, environmental, financial, you name it. So these are challenges that affect the lives of students and educators alike. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the effects that you've seen, these factors, this pressure having on this work that you're doing, justice centered work, and maybe just a few steps that you're taking to try to ensure that the work still moves forward even in this climate.
Lorena Germán [00:19:58]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, oh, there's like so much to say about this. We're seeing some trends that I, you know, I'm preaching to the choir, so I won't dig into them, but we're seeing the trends of people leaving the field. We're seeing the trend of students not wanting to go into education and colleges debating whether or not to shut down their college of education. It happened across the country in a number of different universities. We're seeing schools struggle to function. Right. Due to all the things where we're seeing mental health issues.
Lorena Germán [00:20:36]:
Right. Obviously for the entire nation. But we're seeing it show up in a particular way around behavior in schools and student behavior and teacher absences and principals leaving. You know it's bad when principals are leaving.
Wade Kelly [00:20:49]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:20:49]:
Like, you know it's bad when they are leaving.
Wade Kelly [00:20:52]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:20:53]:
And so. Right. Like, we have this context. And so what does it mean for me and, and my colleagues to come in and say, hey, don't forget about issues of race and bias.
Wade Kelly [00:21:02]:
Don't.
Lorena Germán [00:21:05]:
On one end it's like, it feels like it's just not the moment. And on the other end it's like, no, this is the moment.
Wade Kelly [00:21:11]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:21:12]:
Because there's always going to be a reason not to do it. And in the midst of all of this, we're seeing the news reports of, you know, I don't know if you saw Wade, that teacher, gosh, I don't even remember where this was, what state, but who put on like this feather headdress thing and a math teacher and went around and did this, I mean, horribly offensive, insensitive and ignorant parade of chanting of. I don't know what she thought it was to like teach this math concept. And there were indigenous students in the room.
Wade Kelly [00:21:43]:
Well, I'm glad I missed that. That would have made. Yeah, that would have ruined my day.
Lorena Germán [00:21:47]:
Or teachers using the N word for students, or teachers assaulting, physically assaulting students. These are all instances of what Dr. Stephanie P. Jones written about in the past about curricular violence. We see that that was happening before pandemic during pandemic post pandemic. And whatever this is that we're in. I don't know if that were post pandemic yet. Whatever this liminal space and time is, we're seeing that it's still here.
Lorena Germán [00:22:13]:
And so this is not work for us to push off or pause, but to embed, which is what we have always have been doing. So as part of schools and districts, new social and emotional learning initiatives like you can't have effective SEL without it being trauma informed and without it being anti racist and anti bias.
Wade Kelly [00:22:33]:
Absolutely right.
Lorena Germán [00:22:34]:
And so that is what I have found to be the way to keep the conversation present in the work that schools are doing. There's something to be said about this moment of opportunity as well. Yeah, we have a lot of teachers leaving. Look at how easily some of our restrictions and policies and non negotiables became negotiables during the pandemic.
Wade Kelly [00:22:57]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:22:57]:
All of a sudden, ain't nobody doing no standardized testing. We just can't.
Wade Kelly [00:23:01]:
Right. Homework. Yeah.
Lorena Germán [00:23:04]:
Oh, you're sick. You can be absent. Look at that. Right. And all of a sudden here in Florida, oh, all you need is to have been in the military. You can be a teacher now.
Wade Kelly [00:23:16]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:23:16]:
So these are also opportunities, right. For folks of color who in the past were barred for a number of different reasons. This is an opportunity for us to step in and to not only just simply offer representation, our bodies as educators in spaces of education are in and of themselves a form of resistance.
Wade Kelly [00:23:37]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:23:38]:
You might be, which was the case for me, you might be the only black teacher, black math teacher a kid has had in all of their elementary education.
Wade Kelly [00:23:47]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:23:48]:
For me, I was the only Dominican immigrant woman English teacher those kids had had as a high school English teacher. Right. And so that in and of itself is an opportunity. And then what we always bring in, what we always teach, our points of view and positioning ourselves, as Dr. Gloria Ladson Billings talks about as an authority in a classroom, an intellectual authority. That's important. That's important. Right.
Lorena Germán [00:24:11]:
And so it is a difficult time. I stepped out of the classroom. I taught through Pandemic, and then stepped out when I was pregnant. And it was like, there still wasn't enough research on, like, what is this a good thing? Can you be around people? And so for that and to protect me, my family decided, we're gonna keep you home. You know, I understand what it is somewhat. Somewhat. I know that there's this level of exhaustion right now that is quite unique. And unless you're in a classroom in this moment, you don't know it.
Lorena Germán [00:24:49]:
I get that part. And I also get that, you know, effective teaching, particularly for educators of color, has always been exhausting.
Wade Kelly [00:24:59]:
That's what I was about to say. Yeah.
Lorena Germán [00:25:01]:
Right. It has always been a situation where we are, in a difficult context, getting challenged by colleagues, by admin, by students, and by parents in society, like. Right. And so I don't know. That's what I'm saying. Such a big question. And I don't even know then to acknowledge the weight, the vastness of it, and also to stay encouraged. And, you know, one of the things that I am finding, and I'll wrap it up with this weight, is that, you know, wherever so far in the research that I've been doing in the news that I'm paying attention to, where we find a district or a school that has banned a book or curated a new list or identified topics not to be explored, you find a neighboring district that is like, we are going to be so opposite of that.
Lorena Germán [00:25:57]:
We're going deep dive.
Wade Kelly [00:25:59]:
Huh?
Lorena Germán [00:26:00]:
And whether it's a neighboring school or a neighboring district, it doesn't fail.
Wade Kelly [00:26:05]:
That's interesting.
Lorena Germán [00:26:06]:
It doesn't fail. You've got districts here in the state of Florida that are like, you know, don't say gay. Don't teach about gender until the kid is in fourth grade. Like policies written right now by DeSantis. And then you've got districts like schools within, like Hillsborough or in Pinellas county, where it's like, where do we get the next social justice book? Where do we get the next speaker to come in? How can we diversify the library? Where are the funds? Right. And so that is very encouraging that people are seeing some of this behavior and doing their very best to say, I am not like that. I'm going to stand for truth, and I'm going to value what it is to be a good citizen in our nation.
Wade Kelly [00:26:45]:
Yeah, yeah.
Wade Kelly [00:26:46]:
That's so fascinating that it. I mean, it illustrates the polarization, you know, that we're experiencing as well. But it also, like you said, there's that duality to that because it's also an opportunity when. When people are saying the quiet part out loud, then you can go ahead and tell it like it is.
Lorena Germán [00:27:04]:
Right. And that when people are saying the quiet part out loud, that there are people who might not be saying anything, but they're acting it out.
Wade Kelly [00:27:10]:
Yep.
Lorena Germán [00:27:11]:
They're doing the right thing. They're not gonna get up and argue and say all the things. I'm just gonna do the thing. So when parents were showing up and opening up their crazy mouths, saying all kinds of things at these school committee meetings. You had people of Paris in other districts and organizing and saying, how can we support our teachers? How can we get them wish lists off of Amazon? How can we get these books in there? Going to the libraries and asking for these books. Like, there was a library recently. Oh, my gosh. I can't remember.
Lorena Germán [00:27:35]:
The state was it? I can't remember. I don't want to misspeak. But there was this library, and a parent showed up and said, why do you have this book here? And the librarian is like, I'm gonna have all the books here. Okay. Like, all the books are gonna be here. And so this parent went all the way to the city, like town hall or whatever.
Wade Kelly [00:27:51]:
Yeah.
Lorena Germán [00:27:52]:
And pushed the motion, and the city council voted to shut this library down. Okay. So the library is now vote. It's like it's slated to be shut down.
Wade Kelly [00:28:00]:
Oh.
Lorena Germán [00:28:01]:
Oh, no, it is not. Community came out. People came out from all over the place. And we're like, we're keeping this thing open. They funded it. They're paying the library. Like, they're doing everything to keep that thing open.
Wade Kelly [00:28:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. Good.
Wade Kelly [00:28:12]:
I love the. The community can. The community connection is so powerful. Oh, yeah, we talk about that a lot. Which actually brings me to my next question. We talk about that some in the ten point paradigm at Swift, we have this. What we call the ten point paradigm is just a framework for how to center equity and justice in every layer of the work that we're doing in education. I shared that framework with you previously.
Wade Kelly [00:28:35]:
Were there any points from that paradigm that particularly resonated with you and why?
Lorena Germán [00:28:40]:
Yeah, you know, I've been in my work. I've been reading a whole lot of position statements, missions, equity statements, and very rarely do I find ones that really attempt to encompass what needs to be done in a holistic way. I recently encountered one in San Antonio, which was super encouraging. And then I find that this one, this paradigm is really inclusive of so much of the work that has to be done. And so while I can probably make connections and expand upon every point on there, I think that the decolonized, the decolonized perspective, as well as tell the whole story, really speak to my work or my work connects with that. My work is an iteration of a decolonization. And I don't mean that in the way that it's becoming a buzz phrase and a catch all, catch all approach, but really to think about indigenous knowledge systems, Indigenous voices welcoming them and anchoring our work in that as well. That's why, for example, textured teaching begins with the individual and not with productivity or what is successful, but like, who are these people in front of us and what community are they from? Who are their elders? That's why we start there.
Lorena Germán [00:30:11]:
And that's why, as part of the community centered piece, I talk about how, regardless of where you are, I don't care who are the students, you could be in a predominantly white suburban community. You can be in the middle of Harlem. Right. Like, everyone has land, acknowledgement, work to do, understanding of indigeneity and indigenous communities and history wherever they are. So that's why that perspective matters, because then it begins to shift everything else that you do after. And that's why you have to tell the whole story. Right. That's why.
Lorena Germán [00:30:46]:
The other point makes sense to me as well in relationship to that. This week, I think it was Ron DeSantis and the other person running for governor. Crist had a debate and one of DeSantis points was, you know, some of these teachers are telling students that Florida was built on stolen land. This is inappropriate. Right. The audience did what you just did. And I was like, lord, have mercy, Lord. But, you know, that's why we have to tell the whole truth and that's why we tell the whole story.
Lorena Germán [00:31:22]:
Because that doesn't mean that right now. Then what does that mean? We're evil? No. Like, we're here. This is what it is. Fine. Are there things that we can do to make amends for atonement? Yes. And it still doesn't mean that. That you're a bad person, which is really the ultimate fear that these people have.
Lorena Germán [00:31:37]:
Right. Or that you're going to lose power. Right. Like, guess what? You're still going to be a white guy in this system. Like, you're still going to have your power, unfortunately. So. Right. Like teaching that whole truth requires this decolonized, anti racist, anti biased perspective so that we can get to the real work of being humans and working to heal all of these collective experiences that we've had.
Wade Kelly [00:32:08]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:32:08]:
There's this individual healing based on what I've experienced as a person. And then there's also the healing that I need to feel as part of being a woman in this country, as part of being an immigrant in this country that are experiences that other women have had, that other immigrants have had, that other brown people have had, etc. You know?
Wade Kelly [00:32:29]:
Absolutely.
Wade Kelly [00:32:30]:
Yeah, I appreciate that. So you had just mentioned about. About healing. And so that kind of makes. That's kind of a good segue into my next question, which is about restoration. So can you talk a little bit about what it means for you in the educational experience to be restorative for both students and educators? So how are schools uniquely positioned within society to take on this idea of restoration?
Lorena Germán [00:33:05]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, schools are uniquely positioned because they have been part of the project. They've been part of the project of whiteness, of white supremacy. You know, these institutions that have caused so much harm. When we think about. When we think about, for example, what it means to be an indigenous person in this country, part of that experience includes everything that has to do with assimilation. Schools. We are quite literally in 2022, unearthing the bodies of children.
Wade Kelly [00:33:42]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:33:43]:
Going to school was a matter of life and death. It wasn't about, am I going to get an A on my spelling quiz. It was, do I want to stop being who I was born to be?
Wade Kelly [00:33:53]:
Right, right.
Lorena Germán [00:33:54]:
Like, that is so.
Wade Kelly [00:33:56]:
That's heavy.
Lorena Germán [00:33:57]:
That's all the words. Heavy, hard, serious, painful, traumatizing, enduring.
Wade Kelly [00:34:04]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:34:05]:
What it has been to be an African American in this country includes that literacy was illegal for me. It was a life and death situation during the period of enslavement. I could have been killed for knowing how to read or write.
Wade Kelly [00:34:18]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:34:19]:
If I am, you know, a person like, you know, like, I am Latina. Right. It has meant that I have to not have an accent to be seen as successful. I have to reject my own culture. I have to Anglicize my name. I have to stop speaking my language so that I can, you know, get access to the jobs and be successful. So stop being who I am. That is a.
Lorena Germán [00:34:45]:
That is both a metaphorical violence and it has also been a physical one. When I could be spanked in schools in the Southwest for speaking Spanish.
Wade Kelly [00:34:54]:
Right?
Lorena Germán [00:34:55]:
Right. And as a. As an Asian person, Asian American person that has had its own violence, right. To be a model minority has meant to position myself against other groups of color by my success, be seen as and practice a form of anti blackness. And I've got to live up to this.
Wade Kelly [00:35:15]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:35:15]:
And I got to put my nose up to others. Right? And so this experience of education has been implicated in that big project from its inception. And so, yeah, sure, we can. We can say that we're uniquely positioned. We're also like. Like we better.
Wade Kelly [00:35:29]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:35:31]:
Like we better get it together.
Wade Kelly [00:35:33]:
Fundamentally positioned our part.
Wade Kelly [00:35:36]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:35:37]:
When I think about public schools and private schools, like, there are so many ways to think about the ways that education has been implicated in this, right. Like private schools came from white flight, from white folks saying we will not integrate. And so private schools have from their inception functioned as places to keep the rest of us out.
Wade Kelly [00:35:55]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:35:56]:
And so every institution, everyone has work to do. And then what does it mean that now I'm a person of color and can be seen as an agent of the state?
Wade Kelly [00:36:07]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:36:08]:
And what does that do to me based on my own, right. Like the layers of it all. And so we, we don't have the luxury to say, oh, you know, let me add anti bias work to my profession. That's not, that's what I mean about embedded. Like, no, you should be in this field because in addition to wanting to teach geography, you want to teach the truth about geography. You want people to know what it is, what a border is and how it's man made and how it has a political agenda and it's not a real thing.
Wade Kelly [00:36:38]:
Right.
Lorena Germán [00:36:38]:
You know what I mean? And so that's a long winded way of saying. That's a long winded way of saying that there is a lot of work to do and doing that work, in my opinion and for, you know, all of my colleagues really who do this work, and I'm sure for you being an educator is those things, right? It's not an add on, it's not a special degree, it's not a course you took, it's not a unit.
Wade Kelly [00:37:10]:
Right?
Lorena Germán [00:37:10]:
What I mean, it is the way that, that's why csp, that's what I appreciate about CSP being a stance and not a framework. It is a positionality is my angle from which everything else comes out of.
Wade Kelly [00:37:24]:
Right? Yeah.
Lorena Germán [00:37:25]:
I don't know if I answered your question. I think.
Wade Kelly [00:37:27]:
Yeah, absolutely, you absolutely did. I mean, you know, CSP reminds me in a lot of ways of, you know, the idea of intersectionality or the idea of solidarity or whatever. There's these principles that they are just fundamentally sort of about, about grassroots, like the very bedrock of where you spring from. It's not about just sort of painting things over and sort of reworking things. I mean, that's sort of what the, the powers that be want us to do. They want us to take the slow, tedious time of just, you know, sort of trying to spin this thing that is just not working. And you know, we need to really have a systemic approach where we get out into the roots and then start from there. That's.
Wade Kelly [00:38:19]:
No, you absolutely answered my question. That was really good. So in closing, I just want to say thank you very much for collaborating with us and spending a little time this morning or afternoon where you are to talk with us. And I hope that sometime in the future we can reconnect and see what else you're doing, what your the new chapter in your life is going to be. And so thank you very much, Lorena Germán.
Lorena Germán [00:38:51]:
Thanks for having me. Thank you for these great questions. And I'm hopeful that they can be of help to educators, right? To folks doing this work who might feel affirmed or might feel challenged and maybe they might feel like now they have some homework. That's good.
Wade Kelly [00:39:07]:
Back to homework. Excellent. Thank you very much.
Roberto Germán [00:39:12]:
As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race, bias, education and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.
Lorena Germán [00:39:32]:
Com.
Roberto Germán [00:39:33]:
Peace and love from your host, Roberto Germán.
