Roberto Germán [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space, we talk about education, which is inclusive of but not limited to what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto Germán, and our classroom is officially in session. Welcome back to Our Classroom. Today we're here to talk about when misbehavior isn't misbehavior at all. When we label student behavior as misbehavior, whose norms are actually being used. Whose norms are we actually using? Now, for real, let's think about that.
Roberto Germán [00:00:46]:
And who gets left out of that definition? In this episode, we want to explore how behavior, SEL, race and power intersect and what becomes possible when educators move from managing misbehavior to understanding it through an anti racist lens. And so I've invited Lorena back on the platform to unpack this with us. And this is very timely because we have a, an SEL webinar that we're doing in a few days. And so, yeah, let's, let's use this to process a little bit. What's up?
Lorena Germán [00:01:31]:
Well, first I'd like to say thank you for having me back.
Roberto Germán [00:01:34]:
You're welcome. Thank you.
Lorena Germán [00:01:36]:
Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure to be here.
Roberto Germán [00:01:39]:
Of course, of course. Rocking my panama hat because I just got back from Panama, so I am feeling Panamano.
Lorena Germán [00:01:46]:
Yeah, that's it Looks really nice on you.
Roberto Germán [00:01:49]:
Thank you, thank you. Thank you, citizen of the world.
Lorena Germán [00:01:51]:
I am wearing what you got me this very beautiful headband from Panama.
Roberto Germán [00:01:57]:
That is beautiful.
Lorena Germán [00:01:58]:
I feel like you copied me because I put this on first and then you put on your panama.
Roberto Germán [00:02:03]:
I have my hat here. I, I just, I had it here. I waited to the last moment to put it on once I knew we were getting started. But don't derail us. All right, let's go ahead and jump right into it.
Lorena Germán [00:02:15]:
Okay.
Roberto Germán [00:02:16]:
When we label a student's actions as misbehavior, whose norms are we really using? Who gets left out of that definition?
Lorena Germán [00:02:30]:
Right. A very good question. Because before we even talk about whose norms, I think it's important for us as educators to think about even the attempt to label and categorize behaviors in our quest in classrooms to try to facilitate peace and a safe learning environment and structure and order. Often instead of interrogating the behavior. Right. Instead of trying to figure out what's the unmet need that we all know at this point, right. In 2026, that misbehavior is communicating an unmet need. So sometimes because we feel pressure in the moment to try to have a solution.
Lorena Germán [00:03:17]:
We don't always think like, man, this kid might be tired or like, oh, this kid is, I don't know, hungry or, you know, whatever. They don't understand what's really happening. And so I think, you know, some of the language of categorizing and labeling behaviors can put in us a disposition to just try to check off a box and solve the thing and shove it, you know, out of the way. And, and I think that the kids who are the receptors of this can see that a mile away. Right? Like, they can tell that all you want to do is you want me to shut up or you want me to just stop what I'm doing. You're not actually trying to meet this need. I think that's first, which is challenging. I mean, I have challenges as I'm home educating, I have challenges with behavior issues.
Lorena Germán [00:04:08]:
There's that. But to answer your question about an anti racist lens and looking at it at the intersection of race and culture and bias and behavior, yes, we need to think about where do we get our understanding of good behavior? What does it mean to be well behaved? What are some behaviors that are even maybe culturally acceptable, but not in a classroom space? And sometimes they are okay in a classroom space, but the adult in the room is really set on having control, on managing bodies and on identifying otherwise perfectly fine behavior as troubling and problematic. And so the norms that we're often operating from are white, American, Western notions of good behavior. I think about in this American society, we often know that Italians, for example, are known for using their hands a lot and talking really loudly.
Roberto Germán [00:05:28]:
The Dominicans are known for using our hands a lot also.
Lorena Germán [00:05:31]:
That's right. And for talking really loudly.
Roberto Germán [00:05:33]:
And for talking speaking loudly.
Lorena Germán [00:05:35]:
Right? That's right. For speaking loudly. We speak quickly. Italians might not speak quickly and loudly, but they certainly might sound like they're arguing too, just like Dominicans do and other folks in the Caribbean. And so that tone and that demeanor, that physical approach to conversation is in a classroom by a teacher who is not well versed, culturally speaking, who is, who hasn't done enough unpacking of their own and, and doesn't really have too much of a foundational understanding of anti racist work, might see that as disrespectful, might see that behavior as just loud and something that needs to be shushed and, you know, smushed, which is a different way of saying oppressed.
Roberto Germán [00:06:17]:
Yeah, I mean, yeah, if it's loud, it's loud though, you know, it's not. It might not just be that a teacher is seeing it as loud. Sometimes it's just literally loud. Students are being loud.
Lorena Germán [00:06:32]:
Yes. And there is a time and place for that. And so I think that as teachers, right. We need to understand or stop and pause and say, okay, wait, is this moment where this group of students or where one student is being rather loud? Like, can I diffuse this? Can I ask them to bring the volume down a little bit without it being a judgment and an evaluation of their overall behavioral performance. Right. It's one thing to say, goodness, Roberto, you're really being loud, man. Bring it in. We're right here.
Lorena Germán [00:07:03]:
I love what you're saying. Keep going. Just bring it down. Versus, you know, a write up and a continued, like, negative perspective on you as a student because of these behaviors that again, might have a cultural context.
Roberto Germán [00:07:23]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think teachers have to discern and I think this matters. Right. Because you said that largely it's white norms that are being used, whether you're in a predominantly black classroom and predominantly black school. Black teachers are predominantly Dominican school with largely Dominican teachers or whatever. Then sometimes the norms is simply like your norms as an individual. Right. Sometimes it's white norms because, you know, we live in this society where white norms are.
Roberto Germán [00:08:07]:
Are the dominant norms, whether we like it or not. That's something we contend with. But sometimes it's simply your individual norms.
Lorena Germán [00:08:19]:
Yeah, right.
Roberto Germán [00:08:19]:
As the educator, like, hey, this, you know, this is the way I vibe. This is the way I operate. And so, you know, the behavior that I'm seeing from the collective here is not aligning with what I need and what I wanted to be. Which is why I think it's important to establish classroom norms.
Lorena Germán [00:08:38]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:08:39]:
As in we establish this collectively, community norms, if you will. Right. That's actually a better term to establish community norms, community guidelines in which, yes, the teacher, the educator, the lead adult has. Has much to say, but also the students have much to say. Right. So everybody is sharing their input and we are developing this together and we are holding each other accountable to the community norms, community guidelines that we have established.
Lorena Germán [00:09:15]:
Yeah. And what I want to add is that, you know, you just. What you said is also really important because there's certainly that cultural, social, larger US set of norms and baggage that we bring. But then there's also the individual and experiences that we've had in schools and classrooms and education that influences how we walk into classrooms and what we think is right and wrong. Right. And so I'm thinking about two. I have two scenarios that come to mind. One, Is one I was going to.
Roberto Germán [00:09:42]:
Ask to share an example of behavior that's often discipline in schools, but might actually be a culturally grounded response or survival strategy. So sounds like this might be a good segue for that.
Lorena Germán [00:09:54]:
Yes, yes. I'm thinking about one of our. One of our kids teachers, actually. Or. Or she wasn't a teacher, but she was. She was a part of the education, the school community. And I remember her talking to me about this like rule or norm in. In early childhood classrooms, which is about getting kids, you know, like we're talking kindergarten and earlier at this time for that conversation.
Lorena Germán [00:10:23]:
And she was talking about how in a lot of these early childhood classrooms, they're working on getting kids to whisper, an important skill, a good skill. We want them to whisper. We want them to know what an outdoor is.
Roberto Germán [00:10:34]:
I like the whisper game.
Lorena Germán [00:10:36]:
And we want them to know what an outdoor voice is. And. Oh, look at that. Look at that.
Roberto Germán [00:10:45]:
You have all types of things going on with your zoom.
Lorena Germán [00:10:48]:
Yes, my zoom. Just.
Roberto Germán [00:10:49]:
I'm going to need you to like, get rid of these filters, but go ahead.
Lorena Germán [00:10:51]:
I don't know how to do that. Okay. And so anyway. And so she was talking about, like, you know, those skills and how they're good, but that the general voice was whisper. And so she's like, you know what happens to the kids who have a lot of energy, who at home are listening to parents speak loudly? Because that's just what it is at home, for whatever reason. And so then they're coming in and being actively actually taught against themselves. Right. They're being taught against what they're learning at home and the ways that they are just kind of socially wired at that point.
Lorena Germán [00:11:27]:
And so anyway, that's. That's one. But I. I'm thinking of another example, actually, that I had with a high school student. And I don't know if I wrote about this in texture teaching or not. I don't think I did.
Roberto Germán [00:11:38]:
But you're gonna have to go back and read your own book.
Lorena Germán [00:11:40]:
I'm gonna have to. I don't remember. But, you know, I had this student who we G, for the purposes of this conversation, who I'm still in contact with, funny enough. But anyway, G used to come to school and I'd have him towards the end of the day in our last block. And I mean, this child, goodness, he would not stop talking. Just talking, talking, talking. Every chance he had, he would turn to a partner, he would turn to somebody in the next row. He would turn around, he would pass papers and talking on the way, I mean, just talking at all times.
Lorena Germán [00:12:13]:
And I remember having to sit with him after a couple of weeks of this and saying, hey, G, what's good? You do not be quiet. I have redirected you. I call your attention. I put you on the hallway, we talked, I threatened you. What are we going to do? Like, why can't you stop talking? And so first, clearly, I didn't. I should have done this first. Right. Like, I should have sat with him from the beginning and tried to figure out what's going on.
Lorena Germán [00:12:36]:
And in my mind, you know, this was a misbehavior because I, in my own schooling was like, no, you're not supposed to talk in the classroom. You just are quiet until you're called upon. Right? Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:12:47]:
And.
Lorena Germán [00:12:48]:
And now he didn't directly dispel that, but what he explained to me was, is that, you know, when he goes home, he is alone.
Roberto Germán [00:12:55]:
So he has nobody talk to student goes home, has nobody to talk to.
Lorena Germán [00:13:00]:
Nobody.
Roberto Germán [00:13:00]:
Has a lot that he's processing a lot, Needs to engage with people, wants to socialize, needs to get it out of his system. And so here I am in the school environment. I got an audience, I got my peers. I'm going to talk to as many people as I can.
Lorena Germán [00:13:17]:
Yes.
Roberto Germán [00:13:17]:
For as long as I can in these class periods. Because when I go home, there's nobody home. To engagement. Yeah, I can see.
Lorena Germán [00:13:26]:
And that was before sensitive to that student's needs, and that was before the prevalence of social media like we have right now. So it's not like he could go home and have a semblance of. Of socialization via Instagram or TikTok or any of that. Sure, right. He. He can maybe call people, phone, you know, but there's only so much of that that you could do anyway. You know, it was in that moment that I was like, wait, wait, why can't he talk again? Like, why can't I relinquish a little bit of that control and allow him to work with a partner or allow him to say what's up to people as he's passing around paper. Right.
Lorena Germán [00:14:05]:
Like, it was just this desire of mine to have what I thought was a good and effective classroom management strategy, which was silence. And so that just goes back to, like, my value, my expectation, my belief, my norm for what a classroom is supposed to look and sound like, which is very much a Western thing, although I know that that type of expectation exists, you know, in the east as well. I'm thinking of, like, particular Asian countries, but I Also know that there's other places, you know, typically in the Global south, like, there's a little bit of flexibility there. People can move around, people can talk. You're not necessarily chilling like you're at a park, but you can interact with others. You can socialize. And so that's. Those are some of those cultural norms that, like, it's just how school has been done and that's just what we do.
Roberto Germán [00:15:01]:
Yeah. So there's got to be room to make pivots, and there's also got to be standards. Right. Like that student who you named G can't just be talking in the class all the time, Right?
Lorena Germán [00:15:15]:
Sure.
Roberto Germán [00:15:16]:
Especially distracting others. I'm in the middle of instruction. Like, I really need y' all to get this thing down.
Lorena Germán [00:15:22]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:15:23]:
Right. And I don't. I'm not into, like, oh, lecture based classes. We're not doing 45 minutes to an hour. Just on the stage on. On the stage.
Lorena Germán [00:15:31]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:15:32]:
So if. If I'm already building in time for you for. For the community to engage with one another, then like the time that I have to. To give you the gems that you really need in order to obtain the knowledge and ultimately apply the skills. And I'm need you to lock in, and I'm gonna need you to show discipline to listen and not be speaking during this time. Right. We don't want to go to extremes here.
Lorena Germán [00:15:57]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:15:58]:
We want to be considerate of the students while still maintaining certain standards. And I do want to think about standards that we maintain for all organizations and a lot of other organizations and schools maintain as it relates to addressing matters of race, power, and cultural context. And so we're talking about sel, and often when SEL comes up, CASEL comes up. CASEL has a great framework. They've done some wonderful work. So we want to acknowledge that we know it's widely used and well intentioned, and yet I'm wondering where you see it falling short when it comes to race, power, cultural context, and the intersection of those matters. Yeah.
Lorena Germán [00:16:50]:
I mean, I know of people who would push back and say that it isn't a great and wonderful framework.
Roberto Germán [00:16:56]:
Yeah. I've known people who push back also. We're all entitled to our opinions. I think it's a good framework. I've used it. It's been useful. We can find good and bad in anything.
Lorena Germán [00:17:05]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:17:05]:
All right. So we don't have to run with the term great.
Lorena Germán [00:17:08]:
Yes, yes. But I think that your question is good because it invites critically thinking about that wheel that we all. And obviously we're making assumptions that everybody knows about this framework. Right. But widely used throughout schools in the United States, particularly those that have been doing what they call social and emotional learning. Is this wheel that shares, I think it's like five competencies in the area of social and emotional learning. I personally, based on my research, on my experience, on my reading, on my studying, on my discussing with colleagues, I think that there are pros and cons to it. I'm not completely anti CASEL.
Lorena Germán [00:17:54]:
Until someone can show me information that makes me feel antsy, then I'm open. But I do think that it is lacking. I think it's lacking some really critical pieces that would be inclusive of non white normative forms of social and emotional strengths and ways of being. For example, there are tons of social and emotional skills that I know my students had, that my kids have, that I have, that you have, that actually wouldn't necessarily fall into this wheel or that aren't encompassed by. We'd have to stuff them in there. We'd have to figure out where to put them into that wheel. But they're actually very valuable. They help us to survive in these settings, to thrive in certain settings, to navigate moments and experiences.
Lorena Germán [00:18:48]:
And they are skills that have been passed down too. So there is value intergenerationally, so across context and across time. So one of those, for example, is the ability for immigrant students or immigrant children, regardless of their home country, when they come to the United States and go with parents to doctor's appointments or other appointments, in order to translate. That, for example, requires social and emotional skills, because you're navigating sensitive topics and information that might not even be appropriate for you to know, while ensuring the effectiveness of what your you are translating and that your adult is understanding the material and that you are communicating effectively what that person wants to say. So you are navigating so many things, which obviously encompasses like academic skills, but also social skills, emotional skills of all types that I still don't really know exactly where I would put on that wheel. So that's just one example. Right. And so I think that the wheel you know, and I know that CASEL, the Center for Academic, Social and Emotional Learning, has heard a lot of feedback, and I know that they're either revamping or building that better.
Lorena Germán [00:20:16]:
But for now, I know that this is what's been shared. The traditional CASEL wheel is what's been shared. It's what's widely known and recognized. And I think that it is lacking in some really critical ways.
Roberto Germán [00:20:28]:
Yeah, I wish we had more time to unpack that here I have questions and curiosities and I might want to dig into that example a bit deeper and see where I. I might land on. All right. It might fit into these aspects of the wheel, but then, you know, it might be missing these other components. We don't necessarily have the time to do that right now. But you know, perhaps we could dig into a bit more during our webinar time or with the My Classroom Gold community in one of our upcoming sessions. But for the matter. For the purposes of this conversation, I want to move on to thinking about SEL competencies in terms of how is it that they become racialized in practice?
Lorena Germán [00:21:19]:
Yeah, yeah. So you know, the SEL competencies, the competencies themselves, I don't know that are racialized, but they're. The situations might be racialized. Right. So for example, what for one student is seen as positive behavior or positive responsible decision making, which is one of the competencies for another student might be seen as disrespectful as them practicing their agency is seen as a challenge or defiant to the authority in the room. We already see that in the discrepancies and disproportionalities of student disciplining. Right. We know that kids of color, particularly black boys and Latino boys, get over recommended for suspension and sent to the principal's office than everybody else.
Lorena Germán [00:22:16]:
We also know that Black girls have the highest rates of not misbehavior, but identified misbehaviors when many times their peers are doing some of the same things. And so then there's this self fulfilling prophecy that happens too. And that's what I mean about that. The competency itself isn't racialized, but it lives in this racialized context. Right. I know for me, my tough exterior in high school was part of my coping mechanism. Feeling like this place that I'm at is just hostile, it's violent. And I need to have a tough exterior in order to manage both what I feel like are mistreatments from sometimes peers, but almost very frequently from adults.
Lorena Germán [00:23:07]:
And so I had a rough exterior toward adults that was seen absolutely as defiant and as challenging and whatever other words they would use. But I saw it as self defense the entire time. To me it was a way to cope. And so we have these racialized scenarios.
Roberto Germán [00:23:26]:
I feel like you're defiant towards me sometimes. Do you think it's self defense?
Lorena Germán [00:23:31]:
I am not defiant towards you, Roberto Germán. I am loving and caring. If you call cuddling defiant, oh Lord, then yes, I'm defiant.
Roberto Germán [00:23:44]:
You teach me with love Correct. Shout out to Taina.
Lorena Germán [00:23:49]:
Yes. You see, I'm. Just for the record, this is now on the record. I was focused and you derailed me.
Roberto Germán [00:23:58]:
No, I don't. I'm. We're still on, on task here. What I, what I said is that, you know, you talking about you were viewed by your teachers and others as defiant when you were in high school, but you viewed yourself as acting in self defense. And I'm like, yo, I think sometimes you're defiant towards me and I want to know, is it self defense? You know, this is a learning moment right here. I'm just trying to model for others. I'm trying to model for the educators how it is that certain behaviors can manifest and, and your students can see it one way, you might see another. It.
Roberto Germán [00:24:33]:
But it presents an opportunity for y' all to engage and talk about the behavior that you're seeing and how you're seeing it differently. And it, it can inform you. Right. It could inform you to land at a different. To land at a different conclusion.
Lorena Germán [00:24:54]:
Sure.
Roberto Germán [00:24:54]:
And as it relates to landing in different conclusions, what shifts when educators move from managing behavior to understand the behavior through an anti racist lens? What shifts and what becomes possible in classrooms when that happens?
Lorena Germán [00:25:11]:
You're so cute. Because I like the way you phrase that, managing versus understanding. And maybe it isn't a versus thing. Maybe it's a little bit more chronological, like, let me understand it in order to help you manage. Maybe. But I do like that differentiation. I think that understanding comes first. It doesn't require you knowing everything and anything about your students.
Lorena Germán [00:25:35]:
Because we're not. Right. Like we are not going to know all the things that they don't. It's not their responsibility. Right. And it's not their responsibility to tell us all the things to come and be an open book. Like, you know, why should they trust us? I ask teachers that all the time. Why should kids trust us? Considering how harmful a lot of these schools can be, what shifts everything? Everything can shift.
Lorena Germán [00:25:58]:
When we decide that we are going to take steps toward understanding what we perceive to be misbehaviors and being open to them not being misbehaviors anymore and instead a part of the culture of the classroom, the way things function and work. Right. And allowing some of that uniqueness to just come through based on the dynamics of the people in front of me. The managing is just. I don't know. I know that I felt some relief right when I understood G and his need to talk. I was like, okay, well actually he might be a Good candidate to, to, to lead a small group to like, this might be a good class for me to practice. A lot of partner work, a lot of think pair share, et cetera.
Lorena Germán [00:26:46]:
So instead of me continuing to try to stronghold and choke the class into silence, it became a class that, that at the end of the day was a little bit more active, a little bit more flexible, which ended up actually curtailing some of the other issues that I was having. And so I think, yeah, I have to think more about that. But I like that differentiation between managing and understanding. And that might be a good way. And what shifts everything, like I said, everything.
Roberto Germán [00:27:14]:
Yeah, I mean, part of it is having a pulse on our students, the origins of their behaviors, trying to not just process that alone, but process that with the students, process that with other educators. It's part of what I love about My Classroom Gold. As we are developing our community, we have the opportunity, opportunity to process with individuals who might have a different take, who might have some different experiences, who are in different places in their journey. Some might be quite seasoned veteran educators, others might be early educators. And everybody has something to contribute, right? Everybody could lean into the notion of like, hey, how do we move from managing behavior to understand the behavior? How do we do this? By applying an anti racist lens. Right? Different folks, different approaches. What's working for you? Let me try that on. Right.
Roberto Germán [00:28:15]:
And this work doesn't end with awareness, Right. It requires reflection. It requires practice and accountability. Let me say it again. Reflection, practice and accountability. And where do you currently have space in your professional life to keep learning, unlearning and refining how you respond to student behavior with others who are committed to this work? I know the answer to that question, but where do you, for the people who don't know, where are you finding that space in your professional life to keep learning, unlearning and refining how you respond to student behavior with others who are committed to this work?
Lorena Germán [00:29:07]:
Right. That's critical. The others who are committed to this work, that's what's hard to find. And I'm glad that we are building and continuing to grow multicultural or My Classroom Gold, because I have already, in our short time together, I've already listened to one of our members sharing one of the, one of her morning routines. And I was like, oh, that's really smart and tender and inclusive and loving and caring. And so I want to bring that into my own practice, both like at home with, with my learners, but also when I'm working with adults. And so I spend time in My Classroom Gold. I'm in there daily making comments, liking comments, asking questions, you know, pushing us and just doing some good old talking to my people.
Roberto Germán [00:30:00]:
Yeah, and I think what's going to be helpful as we continue to move forward is we'll be sharing content such as this, some of it that will be exclusive to the My Classroom Gold community, but also that we will be having some, some check in time. Right. Live check in time where folks are presenting different scenarios and we're coaching them through it. And when I say we, I mean we as a community. Yeah, obviously we're going to be doing some coaching because we're leading this thing. Myself, you, Holly Spinelli, shout out to Holly. But also we're welcoming the community members to contribute, to share their insights to, to, to journey with us in that. So folks, if you're listening, I want you to sit with this right now.
Roberto Germán [00:30:47]:
This work doesn't end here. I already said that. Right. There's space for us to continue. There's space for us to lean in together. And none of this is meant to happen alone. So if you're thinking about where you still have space to learn, unlearn and refine how you respond to student behavior, I want you to know there are spaces where educators are doing that work. There's plenty of spaces where educators are doing that work together.
Roberto Germán [00:31:16]:
I don't know about plenty, but there are some spaces where educators are doing that work together. And honestly, the work that we're doing, it's imperfect, it's messy, yet it's done with care. And we're working through the mess together. And that's the part that we're loving, is that we are really developing a community that is teaching the truth, leading with courage and belonging to a community that gets it. So if you're ready and you want to learn more about my classroom goal, we are community educators committed to equity, truth and impact. And so come through. Pull up, check us out multiculturalclassroom.com all right. And just, just, just read a little bit about what our community is doing.
Roberto Germán [00:32:06]:
No pressure, just an invitation to keep the work going in community. And Lorena, thank you for chopping it up. Any final words for our people before we wrap up? We got this webinar coming up on. Oh yeah on, on Monday on MLK Day. You know, part of our contribution on MLK Day, honoring the work we gonna be talking about sel from an anti racist lens and in that sense honoring the legacy of MLK. But Lorena, any final words?
Lorena Germán [00:32:39]:
I want to pressure people to join our community. I know you said no pressure but I do. I I just think that it is it is really a difference maker. So that's one, two come join us for this for this webinar on Monday night. It's going to be useful. I, I plan on sharing and downloading as much information for people as possible. And then lastly thank you for having me. Okay.
Lorena Germán [00:33:03]:
I hope to be back.
Roberto Germán [00:33:05]:
Yes, you're welcome. You're welcome. I will talk to the production team. Oh consider if we will have you back but in the meantime I behaved in between time appreciate you your contribution and your insights are always invaluable. God bless you my people. Stay up with us. Have a good one. As always, your engagement in our classroom is greatly appreciated.
Roberto Germán [00:33:35]:
Be sure to subscribe, rate the show and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race, bias, education and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com Peace and love from your host, Roberto Germán.
