Roberto Germán [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space, we talk about education, which is inclusive of, but not limited to what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto Germán, and Our Classroom is officially in session. Welcome back to Our Classroom. Today I'm joined by Patty McGee, a nationally recognized literacy consultant, speaker, and educator passionate about transforming classrooms into spaces where language and learning come alive. With decades of experience as a teacher, coach, and advocate for delightful literacy practices, Patty has worked alongside educators across the country, partnering to unlock the full potential of their students through innovative and practical teaching strategies. Not Your Granny's Grammar is her third book.
Roberto Germán [00:01:01]:
That's right. You heard that, folks? Not your Grandmama's Grammar. All right, so it's gonna be something for us to talk about. You could check out pattymcgee.org but in the meantime, in between time, welcome to Our Classroom.
Patty McGee [00:01:15]:
Patty, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
Roberto Germán [00:01:19]:
Pleasure to have you here. And, you know, I thought about this for a bit. I'm like, oh, man, we're gonna talk about Grandma, you know, to really. Do I really want to talk about this? Do people want to listen to. And I thought of them like, yeah, you know, I think it is important that we talk about this. And I think there's an angle that we could take to this, and it's very timely because. And actually, I want to start with the real question for. From a member from our community.
Roberto Germán [00:01:44]:
We have a online learning community, professional development community called My Classroom Gold. And I have one of my folks who teaches high school English, and she said, I feel like grammar instruction is robbing my students of their voice. When they. When they stop worrying about grammar, their writing potential is powerful. But when we focus on correctness, their ideas take a back seat. So I want to start here. Is grammar instruction helping students or hurting them?
Patty McGee [00:02:19]:
Yes. Well, I'm going to say that traditional grammar instruction with the worksheet and then maybe a fill in the blank and maybe a diagramming of a sentence, and then expectation of immediate usage and correctness does not work with most students. But if we change our mindset to realize that grammar is to writing, or grammar is to a writer, as a paintbrush is to a painter. When we learn some basics, like three types of sentences, simple, compound, and complex, and we are comfortable with them, we become more fluent writers. And so we use them as tools to. To just think, what do I want to say? And what structure do I want to say it in? We can always revise it later. Which is the most important part. But it's not about correctness.
Patty McGee [00:03:25]:
It's about looking at grammar artfully and also learning it in a completely different way. One that's engaging, one that it's. Starts with inquiry, it moves into. And I know you said that's a high school teacher, but I've done this in high schools and high schoolers love this too. Some type of grammar manipulative or grammar not game, but some play with language and then some reflection around what we've learned and what we're still curious about. And when grammar is no longer the thing that makes us, well, makes many of us want to avoid it altogether. Like you said, you were like, do I really want to go there with grammar today? And my mission is to say that when we rethink grammar instruction and reinvent the instruction and the mindset around it, we can completely change the conversation. We don't have to know everything about grammar.
Patty McGee [00:04:41]:
We don't have to memorize all the rules. We really don't need to do more than realize that when grammar is Grammar know how is developed over time with different methodology than was used with our grandparents.
Roberto Germán [00:05:02]:
Grammar is something, hence the title of your, your book and I love the title of your book.
Patty McGee [00:05:07]:
Thank you.
Roberto Germán [00:05:08]:
Not your Granny's Grammar, published by Corin.
Patty McGee [00:05:11]:
Yes, thank you.
Roberto Germán [00:05:12]:
And, and we're familiar with the folks at Corin Shout out to Corin Publishing. You know, I, I think about the way that I learned grammar and that many of us learn grammar and, and it was not fun. I didn't, I didn't like it at all. I do, by the way. Let me just clearly establish. I think grammar is important and I want everybody to learn grammar. It's, it's going to be beneficial to all of us in our writing development. So as a writer, as an educator, I value that and I, I want to continue to build upon what you said here.
Roberto Germán [00:05:46]:
I'm thinking about when, when teachers feel like grammar is getting in the way of authentic expression, what's actually happening? And, and, and there's a phrase that you mentioned, it escaped me exactly how you framed it. But, you know, basically I hear you saying, hey, we have to find different ways of teaching grammar. We have to find engaging ways of teaching grammar, and we have to teach it not necessarily the way it was taught to us, whereas worksheets and rote memorization, things of the sort. And so can you give me maybe a brief example of a way that you would teach it even in this particular scenario? What's a way that you would Teach it. That would. That would foster engagement from students.
Patty McGee [00:06:38]:
Absolutely. So let's imagine we are starting with sentences, which I believe is the place to start, because sentences are the container of all parts of speech and the building blocks of writing. So we're going to not just study this type of sentence in isolation and this type of sentence in isolation. Instead, we'll study simple and compound sentences together to notice their relationship and to notice how they can benefit each other and how they can be combined or separated. And then I like to follow with a focus on simple and complex sentences. But here's the experiences that I want kids to have. And I say experiences because they're not lessons. They don't go in a lesson format.
Patty McGee [00:07:30]:
It's just 10 minutes, three to five times a week where students engage in first getting curious. It's not. The first step is not identifications. Identification as the first step creates a lot of difficulty. So instead I like to give a. Just a maybe two column chart. And this one is already identified as simple sentences. These are compound sentences.
Patty McGee [00:08:00]:
And in partnerships, we talk about and theorize. What are the differences? What do we notice here? What is the same about them? What theories am I coming up with? So that inquiry part gets kids ready for the next 10 minute experience where I might show them how to combine two simple sentences into a compound sentence using. I know I'm using a lot of jargon here, but coordinating conjunctions. But their nicknames are fanboys. Many of many of you probably are familiar for and nor, but or yet. So, and I'll demo how to do that. Then I'll give kids two simple sentences and then out loud ask them to create a compound sentence. And then the next 10 minute experience, I might have sentence strips that I've cut out and the different fanboys already cut out.
Patty McGee [00:09:07]:
Or ask the kids to help me cut it and a comma. And then ask kids to make as many compound sentences as they can. That makes sense. And they're doing this in partnerships. They're doing this out loud. This isn't a silent experience at all. And with that kind of play, it's not a game where there's a winner and a loser, because in grammar there's, there's mountains of shame that are undercurrents. And in grammar learning and speaking and being out in the world and.
Patty McGee [00:09:42]:
And I want to do away with that. So grammar games have a winner and loser. And the loser is usually the student who doesn't know grammar as well. So instead, play is where we're creating something with some Tools already in hand that are unpredictable. The outcome may make us laugh, make us deliberate. Yeah, that does is the structure of a compound sentence, but it just doesn't make sense that way. There's deep conversations around that. And then finally the next 10 minute experience is reflection.
Patty McGee [00:10:23]:
What have we learned so far? What do we know for sure about simple and compound sentences? And what are we curious about?
Roberto Germán [00:10:30]:
Yeah, that's interesting because it sounds like you're, you're chunking the lesson. And also that last part of reflection, I can't remember ever doing any type of reflection when it came to the grammar that I learned in schools. You know, it's like, here's a grammar workbook. Fill it in. It's either right or wrong, and to that point of right or wrong, and winner, loser. But before that, you, you use the term mountain of shame. And it makes me wonder, where do our standards around correct English come from and who do they center? Because even as I think about the question from the, the member from my classroom, Gold, I know the context in which she's teaching in that her students are primarily students that are native Spanish speakers. And even if, you know, many of them were born in the United States, Spanish is the dominant language spoken in their homes, you know, so, you know, they're wrestling with the duality of English and Spanish, bilingual, bicultural, and all the things that come with that, both positive and also challenging.
Roberto Germán [00:11:41]:
And so I, I'm wondering, where do these standards of correct English come from and who do they center?
Patty McGee [00:11:49]:
So my theory, my belief is that we have, generally speaking, three buckets of grammar. We have spoken grammar, which differs from community to community, from house to house. And in fact, I just find it incredibly beautiful because we get to watch it transform in real time the things that enter into community conversation, the grammar we use. And then there's book grammar. And that's where an author decides to use or misuse grammar for style. And then the third bucket is standard grammar, and that is either the standards by state or the style guides we're choosing to follow. And if we're following, say, APA format, which is usually in graduate school, APA format has its own set of rules that revises every few years because there is an influence of spoken grammar onto book grammar, onto the standards. And so I just want to point out that while some people try to center grammar for the privileged in our system, it actually is a living and breathing set of guidelines that are influenced by spoken grammar.
Roberto Germán [00:13:38]:
Let's build on that. The notion of centering grammar and it being Living and breathing. What role. What should the role of grammar actually be in a classroom that values student voice?
Patty McGee [00:13:55]:
Yes.
Roberto Germán [00:13:55]:
And we're big on that here in multicultural classroom. We are huge on student voice. When I'm doing the student facing work, I was up north in Massachusetts last week working in several middle schools. And you know, my message to them, your voice matters. Your voice matters. Your voice matters. It's. I'm wondering, and I think you've alluded to some of this, but if you could build upon this idea of the role that grammar can actually play and should play in a classroom that values student voice.
Patty McGee [00:14:23]:
Yes. Yes. And thank goodness for those classrooms that value student voice, because that is where true writers are grown. The compliant type of writing is different, and that doesn't really grow us as writers. And so I believe that when we are writing, we are thinking of who we are writing to. Not like maybe a letter, but also like, who is our audience. And if our audience is our peers, then we might bring in more spoken grammar. If our audience is a state assessment, we will need to code switch to more standard grammar.
Patty McGee [00:15:10]:
And by having that experience of thinking of your audience, thinking of what you know about grammar and how to use that intentionally for clarity and connection. And so there isn't a place that is a priority. It really matters, like, what is your voice in this type of writing? What is your voice in this type of writing? And so we draw upon it all. But I find that the style guides are prioritizing more privileged grammar. But if we want to be able to connect and build clarity in those spaces, we use that grammar. But it doesn't have to be the only grammar. So, for example, if we want to be in the medical profession, there's a style guide for how you write for medical. Other people in the medical profession.
Patty McGee [00:16:23]:
So it's a way to reach them. But if we're writing because we're building a memoir, it does not need to comply to a certain style guide.
Roberto Germán [00:16:41]:
Yeah, I think it's good. Important for students to have these different exemplars. You know, I'm even thinking about what you have on your website. I saw a video in which you were reading to young students. I don't know what age group that was or what grade level, but they seem to be probably in third graders, third or fourth grade, something like that. And I think it'd be helpful for you to just share with us, like, what were the practical strategies, even in that particular video that you have on your website that you were utilizing as you were teaching those that group of students.
Patty McGee [00:17:24]:
Funny, it was student voice. So I would read. And that was an experience of knowledge building because we know just how important knowledge building is in becoming stronger readers, writers and thinkers. And so the book that I had, that I was reading, I was teaching them. Not just about like a strategy, like read, pause and recap what you're, what you just learned, or what the author is trying to teach you at the same time, simultaneously building more knowledge. I can actually show you the book if you'd like. Yes, I have it right next to me. Have you seen this series?
Roberto Germán [00:18:13]:
Well, I saw it on your video.
Patty McGee [00:18:18]:
I doesn't matter the age. Everyone wants to read this book, but or face. This happens to be the second edition of it. Revenge of the Butts. It is nonfiction. You build knowledge and gosh, the voice that's in this. This author writes so cleverly while also teaching us some really cool information about animal adaptations and that type of experience. She had her audience in mind.
Patty McGee [00:18:51]:
She had her content in mind. She had her hook. Like, I mean, who can resist? This is. This area right here is actually next to my dining room. And this book was on the shelf. And I don't have anybody under the age of 18 in my house these days. All the kids are grown. But somebody spotted the book and it came out to the dinner table, and all of us were just enamored with it, laughing out loud for a good half an hour.
Patty McGee [00:19:21]:
So experiencing other people's voices and use and misuse of grammar can be delectable.
Roberto Germán [00:19:30]:
I love that. I love that. And it makes me think about the way students can communicate powerfully, even if it doesn't follow traditional grammar rules. And I think that certainly was and has been the case for me. You know, I. When I'm tapping into my creative side, a lot of what I write is poetry. I write in other genres, but poetry is the. My strongest genre.
Roberto Germán [00:20:00]:
And so I, I think it's important for students to understand and for educators to understand that even though some might not follow traditional grammar rules, you know, you, you could still be considered a strong writer. Can you build upon that?
Patty McGee [00:20:17]:
Yes, absolutely, 100%. And especially when students have carefully crafted what they're trying to say and they're thinking of who their audience is and if they allow the teacher to also know, the audience doesn't have to be obviously a single person, but a group of people. Like, when you write your poetry, you're writing it for people who read poetry. And so you're not gonna put out like a five paragraph essay. Although I'M sure there's a poem in that somewhere. But instead, the way that students are writing, is it clear and is it connecting to your audience, your reader? And if it isn't, we don't even need to correct. Here's what we can do. It's just a very different turn of phrase.
Patty McGee [00:21:19]:
Instead of fix this, fix that, fix this. So I might say something like, in your piece here, you have written many simple sentences. And I know that because all of these sentences have a who and a what did they do? Or a subject and a predicate, a verb, and the noun doing that verb. And that's such an important foundation. So keep writing those simple sentences. If you'd like to learn how to vary your sentence structure, let me show you one way. So it's an invitation into some type of grammar application, and then it's a tool for students. It's not a you're correct or incorrect.
Patty McGee [00:22:08]:
It's a if you'd like to play around and see what your writing sounds like, musically, rhythmically, with different types of sentences, let me show you just one. And that is a different conversation. There's no shame in that. In fact, it's naming a strength and why it is there so students can own their strengths. And then it's an invitation into learning some more.
Roberto Germán [00:22:40]:
I like that invitation approach. It's definitely a different approach than what I've seen folks utilize as it relates to teaching grammar. And so for those that want to learn more about you, about your approach, about your book, not your granny's grammar, where should they go?
Patty McGee [00:23:07]:
Yes, my website is chock full of resources. There's a way to connect right to the book. But there's also lots of podcasts, lots of blog posts, and other downloadables things like [email protected] but here's the thing. If you google pattymcgee.org and you spell it with an I, you get this famous skateboarder from the 60s. So you need to spell Patty with a y. So pattymcgee.org is where you can find all things you can connect with me. And it's just a really robust place to find what you're looking for in terms of grammar refresh, but also writing and other things.
Roberto Germán [00:24:02]:
There you have it, folks. Hey, particularly for individuals that are in the classroom that are directing students that are teaching grammar, there's a different way to do it. And Patty has just offered us some gems on how we can approach this, especially by inviting our students into the experience by chunking the approach, by having them reflect on grammar There's a thought reflection. Isn't that important, My people, something we talk about all the time here at our classroom and that multicultural classroom as an org. So, Patty, we want to thank you for your time. We want to thank you for your insight. Really helpful to. To learn about how it is that.
Roberto Germán [00:24:49]:
That we can approach things differently. And, and that's essential for us, that we're always learning, always growing, always expanding our lens because there, there are. We have to try these things on. We have to try these approaches on instead of just shutting down and saying, like, hey, you know, I didn't like the way I was taught. I didn't benefit from the way I was taught. So I'm not even going to touch that. That's not helpful to anybody. So let's be open to learning, let's be open to growing, and let's push ourselves to utilize all these resources that are available to us.
Roberto Germán [00:25:22]:
So again, folks, go check out Patty's website, pattymcgee.org that's PattyMcG. E e.org Patty with a Y. That is, folks, you already know, unless you want the skateboarder. All right, then check it out. Check out the website, check out the resources, and get yourself a copy of Patty's book, Not yout Granny's Grandma. Thanks for being here with us.
Patty McGee [00:25:49]:
Thank you for having me.
Roberto Germán [00:25:51]:
As always, your engagement in our classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race, bias, education and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com Peace and love from your host, Roberto Herman.
